Severe Crisis In Ukraine

Imperialism is imperialism. I make no apologies for the US or EU. Their wrongs don't justify Russia's wrongs. You're saying, in effect, that until the Second Coming anything goes. That's backward. Good behavior should be the norm, even when it's not "normal."

"We were the same country 22 years ago." No. 22 years ago, Ukraine was conquered territory. It was part of the Russian empire and then the Soviet empire. Then it became free when the Soviet grip loosened. Now the Russian government seeks to rebuild the old empire. I'm saying Ukraine deserves to be free, unless its citizens, in a truly fair and free election, choose to merge with Russia. The benefit to Ukraine would need to be made plain.

You well know that borders have been fluid in eastern Europe. At the end of WW2, Poland got a chunk of eastern Germany to compensate it for a chunk of Poland going to Belarus (then part of the Soviet empire). Will these actions be reversed? Since there are few natural boundaries in the east - no mountains or rivers - borders have expanded and contracted throughout recorded history. You're disingenuous to suggest Ukraine as it exists is somehow illegitimate. No more so than Russia.

Here's what Wikipedia reports about the The Khmelnytsky Uprising. It wasn't a voluntary union of Ukraine and Russia. It was a rebellion of Cossacks and Ukrainians against Poland, which was exploited by Moscow to seize power over the lands once occupied by Poland. Hardly a basis for any current claim by Russia. It sounds like another basis for resentment of empire-building Russia by Ukraine. I notice there was a voluntary joining of Ukraine and Crimea. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising (also known as the Khmel'nyts'kyi/Chmielnicki Uprising)

"The Khmelnytsky Uprising was a Cossack rebellion in Ukraine between the years 1648–1657 which turned into a Ukrainian war of liberation from Poland. Under the command of Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky, the Zaporozhian Cossacks allied with the Crimean Tatars, and the local peasantry, fought several battles against the armies and paramilitary forces of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The result was an eradication of the control of the Polish szlachta and their Jewish intermediaries, and the end of ecclesiastical jurisdiction for the Latin Rite Catholics (as well as Karaites, and other arendators) over the country. The Uprising has taken on a symbolic meaning in the story of Ukraine's relationship with Russia. It resulted in the incorporation of eastern Ukraine into the Tsardom of Muscovy at the Pereiaslav Agreement, where the Cossacks swore an oath of allegiance to the tsar. This, according to the poet and artist, Taras Shevchenko, brought about his people's 'enslavement' under Russia.[1]

The Uprising started as the rebellion of the Cossacks, but as other Orthodox Christian classes (peasants, burghers, petty nobility) of the Ukrainian palatinates joined them, the ultimate aim became a creation of Ukrainian autonomous state.[2] The Uprising succeeded in ending the Polish influence over those Cossack lands that were eventually taken by the Tsardom of Russia . These events, along with internal conflicts and hostilities with Sweden and Russia, resulted in severely diminished Polish power during this period (referred to in Polish history as The Deluge). The failure of the Cossacks to consolidate their victory led to the Ruin (Ukrainian history)."

 

Actually, it does. That is how the world works. Non-intervention is a vegan idea and, just like vegans themselves, it is doomed to death without vitamines.
Most importantly it means that you are not on a high horse over here, despite you might have the other impression.

BS. Ukranian SSR was a co-founder of USSR itself. You really need to read up some history books before making empty claims.

Been watching too much CNN and Faux recently? Russian goverment seeks only it's economical interests.

You are saying that you are delusional ignoramus, that is all. There is no "free elections", there are always some financial and media support behind each candidate. In other words, people vote for those with greater power even if they don't realise it.

Not a question of being legitimate or not. Country is splited in two halfs. It will constantly drive itself into the ground until the issue will be solved.

First of all, which "claim"? We are not making any claims on that basis.
Secondly, well, it is a perfect proof that you know shiт about region's story and yet making ridiculous claims, that it was "occupied". While, in fact, it was liberated from Polish opressors , using your terms.

 

This is the problem with Ukraine in a nutshell, but the Western part of Ukraine will not accept a break up. Instead they want to impose the E.U. on the Eastern part of Ukraine which has ties with Russia. Of course Kerry fully supports the protestors, nothing like causing mischief and seeing people killing one another in other countries....

Don't you just love him?

 

Past a certain point, cynicism becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're so "realistic" that there's no decency or hope in your world. The "economic self-interest" of all nations is to rule the world. But what a hell we'd live in if everyone pursued only their economic self-interest. I suspect you really agree with me, or you wouldn't strive to edit history so that your guys look pure. If it's only about "self-interest" why not bare fangs openly? Could it be that self-interest is not only economic, but includes the security of living in a world of mutual respect?

 

Oh, so they're attacking the police in the video, because they want a mutual respect?

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-rioters-beat-police-202/

 

That's absolutely correct. In a related thread, I alluded to just that when I said:

It shouldn't be forgotten that Ukraine is divided geopolitically from the EU-friendly Poland on its western border, to the Russian-influenced eastern side. Ukrainian's and Russian's are similar culturally and linguistically but it's in terms of economics and politics that they differ.

Western Ukraine wants closer integration with the EU which, in part, was inspired by the economic boom that they saw in Poland. They want rid of the Russian influence that that perceive is holding them back from their nationalist aspirations, despite the fact that Russia gave them independence in 1991. The EU have been pushing for closer economic ties with the Ukraine ever since. In that sense Russia has unwittingly dug its own hole.

Allied to this, is the spread of Nato eastwards. Naturally, in view of these developments, Russia feels increasingly hemmed in. But eastern Ukraine, notably its industrial Donetsk basin, feared that growing integration with the EU would wipe out their region’s outmoded manufacturing industry, mining, steel firms, commodity companies and chemical plants, that would create mass high unemployment.

I think what we are witnessing in Ukraine is akin to what happened prior to the events that led to the unification of East and West Germany. Most Russian's have a strong cultural affinity to Ukraine, but it's only the Eastern half of Ukraine that feels the same way about the Russian's. Herein lies the problems.

Sensing the divisions, the United States has lit the torch paper in the region. McCain and high-ranking US officials have gone to Kiev and called for the ousting of what they are depicting as an illegitimate government. Imagine if Russian politician's went to say, Toronto, encouraging people to overthrow the Canadian government with the aim of curtailing the influence of the Obama regime?

But such is America's commitment to democratic principles, that it supports head-chopping and heart-eating fanatics in Syria as well as the brutal fascist dictatorships of Egypt’s and it's Saudi-financed military junta.

As Ukraine boils, the US has been turning up the heat on Russia and leader Putin. Meanwhile, the anti-Ukranian media in the West sing to the US tune. Eventually a political division is likely to arise along the lines of the Czech Republic and Slovakia. The alternative will be a confrontation between NATO and Russia over Ukraine and the build up to WW3.

 

You may stay in your freedom-democracy pink unicorns' imaginary land. It is not like I am fircelly against it.

Let's not blow things out of proportion. Contrlling 2-nd poorest nation in Europe is not "rulling the world".

It is wrong to judge countries by human relations scale.
Anyway, welcome to reality.

Oh, so I am "editing history", despite that is you, who are clueless and/or brainwashed and don't know history of the region.
Care to get down from your high hourse already?

Because people want to reach catharsis. Positive emotions - which means positive handling of information you provide to population- increase stability in the society. That is why even the most violent and cruel decisions were covered with wrapper of good intentions.
As you know, Nazis were not slaughtering people on an industrial scale, they were "fighting with international Jewish conspiracy against the Germans and securing living space on the East".

Nations, which you have invaded for the sake of democracy and human rights are now 3-rd world decaying hellholes.
Arn't you confused with that fact?

 

Political discord always boils over into street violence. That happens everywhere. What of it? You're surely not claiming that this is unique to Ukraine or to your imaginary country of "West Ukraine"?

 

"Positive emotions - which means positive handling of information you provide to population- increase stability in the society." Are you talking about what Hitler and Stalin called propaganda? Is it more of your "realism" to say governments lying to the people is a good thing?

"Nations, which you have invaded for the sake of democracy and human rights are now 3-rd world decaying hellholes.
Arn't you confused with that fact?" As I wrote before, I can make no apology for the wrongs done by the US, but our past wrongs don't license us to do more wrong, and don't license Russia to do wrong.

My grandparents emigrated to the US from Belarus and Ukraine. That was before the "Revolution." I grew up hearing stories of life in the "old country." The cynicism and brutality and corrupt "realism" you express were not, I believe, typical of old Russia. I suspect the communists, who despised "bourgeois morality," debased and degraded the whole country. I hope that a healing process has begun and that Russia recovers its sense of right and wrong. That probably won't happen so long as Putin and his ilk remain in control. Russia may have to wait until the generation of former apparatchiks dies off.

 

So what Jeanette is saying is that the Eastern part of the Ukraine (she also somehow forgets that in strictly percentage numbers they are the minority) are inherently more privileged than the Western/urban majority of the Ukrainian population. Shouldn't the government of the Ukraine be a better target for the label of "causing mischief and seeing people killing one another"?

 

Is lying to the people a good thing? How can it be when those who are capable of the most deceit are the people making the decisions. I should think their very nature would make them the least capable of knowing what is best for their country as well as the world.

In the morning, the first newspaper I read is the BBC and it never ceases to amaze me at the way they spin things in order to influence people. For instance today they said the revolution is moving further East in Ukraine, in order to give the impression it is extending into the Russian leaning zone, something which is far from the truth. This is a deliberate attempt to get people in the West to believe the majority of the Ukrainians are with the protestors.

Two days ago they blasted the Greek coast guard for the migrants who died when a boat sunk. They wrote that the sea was treacherous and that they might have been trying to tow the boat back. No emphasis was placed though on Turkey, who sent those migrants into the sea without any concern for their lives.

Your impression of Putin has been formed by Western propaganda. Putin took a nation robbed of all its natural resources under Yeltsin, and gave it back its self respect, is that so bad? Contrary to Western opinion, Putin is a highly moral and devout person. He has not only been to Mount Athos, but also has a well known Orthodox Elder as his spiritual father, so I don't see how it's possible for him to go against Christian moral and ethical standards. Funny how the same ones who keep make reference about him as having been the head of the KGB forget that our first President Bush was also the head of the CIA, and he too is a highly devout man and has equally high moral and ethical standards. We have to realize that those values have to be balanced with the responsibility that they hold because of their political position, so let's look at them through those lens, rather than the ones formed through our media.

 

The only way that someone can get an idea of what is going on in the Ukraine, is by looking at the religious denominations. Not that the picture is exact since many young people prefer the more liberal attitudes in Europe, and not all Orthodox want to be under the Moscow Patriarch. To understand this fully, you have to realize that the animosities between the East and West goes back almost one thousand years, so there is quite a bit of baggage on both sides.

The Western Ukrainians are mostly Byzantine Catholics and are under the Pope as are the Latin Catholics. Historically they have the most animosity towards Russia, and feel the closest to Europe. They also have the loudest voices in the West, but as you can see they are a very small percentage. Here is a break up:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Ukrainian Orthodox - Kyiv Patriarchate 50.4% - Under the Patriarch of Constantinople

Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 26.1% - They are probably Russians

Ukrainian (Byzantine) Greek Catholic 8% - Under the Pope and closest to Europe

Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox 7.2% - Schismatics, not recognized by the Orthodox Church

Roman Catholic 2.2% - They follow the Latin rite and are under the Pope

 

Here it is not necessary to tell a fairy tale about Putin! Putin was engaged criminal business in 1980 - 1999г. Covered gangsters. And the biggest a crime Putin it to help firm (studio): Russian video (shooting of films). Studio (Russian video) removed a children's pornography the beginning 1990, video sale (children of a pornography) to the USA and Germany! That Putin was one of the main patrons of business. Here this mason (it is shown on video) tells why Putin is chosen by the president of the Russian Federation. But all truth has not told. After all Puten has enclosed the big contribution to disorder of the USSR, and to 1999 circle of Russian the Mason it was accepted to choose (Putin) the president of the Russian Federation. Путен has refused, then I eat have let know that it can to go to prison or become the president of the Russian Federation and to strengthen Russia thus to take away from the friends money, bread (gangsters with which plundered Russia). Putin is a doll in hands of true governors of the country! Now the main thing a question who will be the president of Russia per 2018? And all that is in Ukraine, Europe, Siri, Egypt it simply theatre (performance) for people. Whether the main problem will be mass reduction of people with application of the mass weapon of defeat (nuclear war, explosion)

[video=youtube;y1xn0hTRt8w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpag e&v=y1xn0hTRt8w[/video]

 

Excellent observations.

 

You are not good at logic, I understand.
It is not about being an abstract "good" or "bad" thing.
It is a matter of understanding world's functioning. Goverments and media lie to the people.

And again, it has nothing to do with doing "wrong" things. It is just the way things are at the world. And they were exactly the same way for thousands of years. If you want to live in the world of of mutual respect - go on. Your country will be torn apart by those, who don't.

Nostalgia is always the same. "Grass was greener and water was fresher, when I was young." Typical.

You are, obviously, too brainwashed and incapable of understanding. Fertile manure for your own goverment manipulation.

*Knock-knock*
-Who is there?
-It is your uncle Fox news. I came to talk with you about ebil Soviet Union and ebil Putin.


You are totally brainwashed. Just wasted.

Indeed, the equal numbers supported and opposed Maidan...that was before neo-nazis and ultras started trowing molotovs to the police. I am damn sure it fell down for good now.
Besides, imported protestors have recieved a beating in the East(Dnepropetrovsk):
[video=youtube;JH32nZRnhiw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH32nZRnhiw[/video]
Anti-maidan rally in Sevastopol:
[video=youtube;IPZGB2bsX5I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPZGB2bsX5I[/video]

Why won't you go back to the pit you've clambered out? Nobody is interested in liberast-vatnik 3-rd rate conspiracy.

 

FYI KGB Agent,
In Democratic countries, governments don't lie; they bend the truth. If they are caught lying, they don't get elected next time.
The BBC is a government organisation and so tends to support the views of the government of the day. The free press (privately owned news outlets) support whom they want when they want.
In a dictatorship everything is controlled by the government; everything is either Black or white on pain of death or reeducation. 💣

 

Oh, I wonder how many countries are "democratic" then........may be a dosen or so.

Pfff....big deal. Electing one talking head instead of the other for a change. Sounds incredibly familiar, isn't it?

In other words corporations and oligarhs control information you recieve from the media--> choises and opinions of the majority. Exactly my point.
Don't let idealism blind you.

 

I'm referring to Ukrainians.

Granted, you might be right. Eastern Europe has always been rather backwards. It's like the Deep South of Europe.

 

What makes you think that the West's pagan values is modern and something new? Unless I'm mistaken, paganism was alive and well way before the Abrahamic faiths.

And as for atheism, wasn't the Soviet Union based on it, and wasn't atheism prevalent throughout Eastern Europe?

 

I'm not sure how paganism entered this discussion.

If you're saying secular is the same as pagan, I guess, although that doesn't make much sense. Paganism is a religion unto itself.

Secularism isn't a religion. It's just a matter of keeping religion out of government and doesn't exclude people from having their own faiths.

Yes, the Soviet Union was atheist, and some of Eastern Europe is predominantly atheist, but neither of these things keep a culture from being backwards oftentimes.

There are still outdated customs that many of these cultures adhere to, along with xenophobic tendencies.

Also, women's rights tend to be lacking in Eastern Europe.

 

Some people just tend to have screwed and weird idea of progressiveness=how many open gays you have and how many people pretend they are Ok with it.

 

To a Russian, I can see how the pursuit of happiness is "weird."

 

So sexual license is happiness? Interesting, and here I thought it was a weakness.

 

What is "sexual license?"

 

What you consider being progressive.