Big Oil the problem, Renewables the future

Child!

 

You think the energy demand in this place is tiny?

 

Oil from algae has been going nowhere for a long time. The materials for the batterie in a Prius are renewable. Many, if not most Prius batteries are refurbished

 

The batteries may have some renewable properties, but they don't produce the energy. And there isn't enough materials in the world to appease the consumption.

BTW, people have already shown why coal and oil are the best solution for the world. China and India are consuming more and more. They are pulling themselves out of the 3rd world and progressing like America did through the easy and cheap energy oil provides. Only the richest per capita countries can afford these alternative fuel sources.

 

That's a small Saudi village?

 

November 1983

TWO years ago, this village of 3,000 people, only 20 miles from Riyadh, the capital of this kingdom, had no electricity. Today, villagers proudly display their televisions, toasters and other accouterments of an electrified society.

But when Saudis here turn their lights on at night, they are using energy generated not by their country's vast oil reserves, but by the sun.

This village and two others nearby are the first in the kingdom, or anywhere, to be powered continuously and primarily by solar power.

Earlier this month, the kingdom celebrated this accomplishment at a dedication attended by a bevy of princes, solar scientists, Government officials and the direct beneficiaries of the project itself, the villagers.

The Saudi Solar Village Project, as it is called, is one of several solar experiments being sponsored by the Saudi Arabian National Center for Science and Technology and the United States Department of Energy as part of a joint cooperation agreement signed in 1977. Under the five- year agreement, each country is to provide $50 million for specific technical projects. The agreement was extended last year for three more years to enable all of the $100 million to be committed. The solar village, which has cost about $26 million, is the largest project to date.

After 16 months of continuous operation, Saudi officials decided to pronounce the solar village a success.

continued

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/11/01/science/in-saudi-arabia-the-sun-shines-bright-on-solar-power.html

 

Wind generators are primarily made from iron and copper with aluminum used for many of the other parts. Iron is the 2nd most abundant metal on earth and there is estimated to be 5 million years worth of copper available at the current rate of extraction. All 3 of these metals are recycled.

So explain exactly how they are "more scarce than oil and coal and natural gas"?

 

Ah, so even this solar project is entirely subsidized by the state and it is impossible to determine if it is cost effective or efficient.

 

Note the date was 1983... The Saudis are real good at efficiencies of scale.. That's why Saudi ARAMCO is the largest most well integrated oil company in the world.

 

"Big Oil" has a huge technological competitive advantage in that the market overwhelmingly prefers vehicles powered by gasoline/diesel.

 

Yeah, if we were just talking about that, it would be nice. Sadly, the part that actually creates the energy is the magnet. Made of Dysprosium. Second rarest metal on earth. New magnets being made come from cerium, also a rare earth metal. This has a <10% recyclable rate. Comes from Russia, China, and Malaysia mostly.

 

I'm pretty sure that Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan have cerium in commercial quantities...

 

Induction generators don't need any permanent magnets.

 

I like seeing the development in this thread. It seems to have drifted into some debate areas such as materials. The materials to build renewables is just as cost effective as the mature infrastructure to maintain the fossil fuels. We mine entire mountain tops and build massive oil rigs to extract fossil fuels. How can anyone in their right mind suggest that solar/wind has more environmental impact than that!?

 

Someone else responded to you already, but permanent magnets are not typically used in generators. Do you have some example you were thinking about? I suggest you watch this if you aren't really sure of what it takes to build a generator.

[video=youtube;4texz0Gn7cw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4texz0Gn7cw[/video]

 

Still a rare earth metal. Yes, Afghan has a lot....in the very mountainous ranges controlled by warlords. The Russians knew about these deposits, but its still too costly to extract. Again, strip mining is the most cost effective way to get this metal as well.

Oh, ok, go the less efficient, more costly route that has far more down time and far more repairs needed. That's sensible. Or have the permanent magnet which is harder to find the raw materials for and still more costly and less efficient than oil. You know how else we can create electricity? Why not just hook up all the unemployed to power generating bikes and have them pedal for their checks? That's the most renewable energy source right there.

 

Yeah, this ^ is much more environmentally safe than...

 

And the process of extraction from ores requires coal reformed into coke and extremely unfriendly process to the environment and It's not iron it's steel. Iron is much to brittle.

 

Non-perm magnet needs to move at >750 rpms to be effective. Typical commercial turbine moves at 10-20 RPMs. Massive gearbox needed to convert 20 into 750.

Perm magnets need around 120 rpms. Less of a gear box needed.

The gearboxes are main reason why wind generators break down causing more maintenance and higher costs. Trading one cost for another really, but it is still much higher of a cost than oil extraction and refining.

 

We could go back to wood burning since that is a very renewable energy source that requires almost no oil if everyone just has an ax. Oh, but then again, we didn't get nearly technologically advanced as we did with the easy and plentiful oil and coal. Even fracking is cheaper than mining rare earth minerals.

 

They conveniently ignore the extraction, refining and delivery costs of fossil fuels and the pollution costs as if they don't exist.

And yes, all that extraction, refining, delivery and pollution control equipment requires maintenance and replacement which is also ignored.

- - - Updated - - -

Your tacit concession of your position is duly noted and accepted.

 

Why is the refining of iron into steel more important than the refining of crude oil into gasoline?

And let's not forget that refining the steel is a one time process. Refining the crude oil is 24*7 year in and year out. Which do you think is more polluting?

Oh, and did I forget to mention that when the gasoline is eventually transported and you get to use it in your gas guzzling SUV that it emits pollution while that wind turbine emits none at all while it is generating the electricity to power your microwave and your PC?

- - - Updated - - -

Assumes factoids not in evidence.

 

A typical power plant's Pearson Turbine (steam turbine) operates at 3,600 RPMs. I'm not sure where you got this "10-20rpm" measure from?

In fact I think you're confusing power plants with car engines...

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/steam-turbines.html

 

Oh, he was referring to wind turbines. My bad. His fault for not being specific.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine_design

The gearboxes are fine...not a problem. And you have to operate around 1,800 rpm to generate the voltages needed to have good power to the grid. So it really doesn't matter that you think induction generators using electrical magnets are less efficient at requiring 750 rpm versus permanent magnets requiring 120 rpm.

It's not like there's a difference of 300% power generated between the two designs.

 

I still can't verify the guy's 750 rpm versus 120 rpm or whatever, but I can provide a synopsis of which generator will be used in Wind Turbines.

Answer: Induction Generator. It's much cheaper and more rugged and suited for outdoor conditions with fluctuation temperatures.

Conclusion: The Permanent magnet issue seems to be a distraction and unimportant even though I disagree with permanent magnets being a problem.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/W...enerators_is_best_to_be_used_in_wind_turbines