http://www.vpc.org/press/concealed-...ake-us-less-safe-latest-vpc-research-shows-2/ 885 people have been killed in 696 incidents. 293 (42%) were suicides. 222 (32%) have resulted in convictions. 53 (7.6%) were murder suicides. 17 (2.4%) were killed in the incident. 84 (12%) are pending. 27 (4%) were accidental. Looking at the graph, we can see that there were about 25 incidents that involved self defense killings or did not result in a verdict. These are not included in the 696 total. Excluding cases that are pending and cases in which the concealed carry holder was killed by someone else we are left with 595 cases. So the ratio of incidents that involve unjustified killings compared to incidents that involve justified killings by concealed carry holders is about 24:1 (595:25)! That's not a very encouraging ratio to say the least. What about the conviction rate? 222 cases have resulted in convictions compare to about 25 incidents that involved self defense killings or did not result in a verdict. That's a conviction rate of about 90%. A concealed carry holder who kills another person with his/her gun and does not die in the incident is 90% likely to be convicted of a crime. The NRA claims that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. But we see a lot more evidence of gun owners using their guns against good guys than bad guys.
Wow, that is some misleading nonsense. First off you are looking at years worth of incidents and attempting to make a case which when looked at honestly simply doesn't exist. In the dataset available, which covers nine years, you would have on average less than 100 deaths per year accounted towards concealed carry holders. When you look at total homicides, suicides, and other gun deaths per year 100 is so insignificant that nobody would pay attention and in fact haven't paid attention. Yet when you can create a misleading title in which you have a large lump sum of bodies you might garner some attention by the rubes, but certainly nobody that is going to really look at the numbers.
A third of those people who died were suicides so if those people hadn't had a concealed carry permit they wouldn't have made the decision to take their own life? Is that what you're trying to tell me? Well golly. I've owned guns my whole life but only a year ago got my carry permit. I didn't realize that would increase the probability of me choosing to take the easy way out. And let's address that part about being likely to be convicted of a crime if you kill someone in self defense. What you are saying is that it doesn't make me safer because instead of dying at the hands of some thug I spend my life in prison and it doesn't make society any safer because self defense is a bad thing? Well you can suck the lube off chrome lined barrel of my concealed handgun. Self defense isn't a danger to society. Outlawing self defense is.
Let us assume, for the sake or argument, that the above statistics and figures are indeed accurate, and are not skewed for the sake of attempting to bolster a political argument. We have eight hundred and eighty five individuals dead, over a period of nine years, over an area of forty one states and the district of columbia. This breaks down to just slightly more than two deaths per state, per year, attributed to those who hold valid concealed carry permits. Compared to the countless hundreds committed every single year by known criminals who do not have concealed carry permits. Why were only forty one states analyzed, rather than every state where concealed carry is legal? Why were suicides listed as examples for making a case against concealed carry permits? Why are pending cases included when there is no final decision on them yet? Why do you bother with continually repeating this tired narrative when the math is simply not on your side?
Please divide your total deaths into the U.S. Population, then multiply by 100 so we can see what things are factually more dangerous. For example second hand smoke deaths will be shown by you to be more lethal to innocent people. I'll also track how many posts it takes you to not answer factually. This will be aside from the fact that this thread will be shut down due you posting a known false.
I'd rather know the statistics on how many lives have been saved, when bad people with guns, generally unregistered, fear the presence of an armed good guy. As for gun laws, assume your motive for the thread, many gun laws, check this out.....
the second I saw the suicides being included, I realized it was complete and utter BS. and how many of those other cases can the BM idiots who created that study establish that "BUT FOR" concealed carry, the incident would have not taken place - - - Updated - - - Anything-I REPEAT ANYTHING that comes from the VILE PROPAGANDA CENTER (VPC) has to be seen as blatant and dishonest propaganda. NO group in the USA is more dishonest and mendacious than the VPC
As usual, pro-gun activists respond with the same unoriginal talking points. "For other products, our society takes many reasonable actions to reduce injuries. Government has helped to create safety standards for chainsaws and lawn mowers, which never caused as many unintentional fatalities as guns. We are especially concerned if children may be hurt and thus we mandate safety standards for such relatively safe products as teddy bears and toys. By contrast, there are no federal safety standars for guns. When airbags were shown to have been responsible for an average of six child deaths per year in the 1990s, intense media attention, myriad studies and conferences, and manufacturer and governmental responses ensued. The deaths of these children were deemed unacceptable. "Over the past twenty years, an average of one child per year has died from injuries when soccer goals tip over and crush children climbing on the goals or hanging from the crossbars. The Consumer Product Safety Commission and the soccer goal industry moved quickly to help develop a new safety standard to reduce the risk of tipping.... "Similarly, during the 1990s an annual average of two children per year under the age of fifteen died by locking themselves in automobile trunks. The National Highway Traffic Safety Commission appointed a panel to study how to reduce trunk entrapment. Manufacturers were rightly concerned, and in 1999, General Motors and Ford began offering an escape handle and a trunk latch mechanism to prevent the trunk from shutting unless an adult manually resets the latch. It is certainly reasonable to expect a response to the far greater problem of accidental gunshot injuries, which were killing eighty times more children under age fifteen each year." Private Guns, Public Health So why are a few deaths involving lawn mowers, chain saws, air bags, soccer goals, toys, teddy bears, and automobile trunks taken very seriously but an even greater number of deaths involving guns and concealed carry not even worth thinking about? There is something seriously wrong and disturbing about your whole mentality. All lives matter.
I think you're getting ahead in your list of talking points, since no one said anything that would have produced this response. Honestly I wish they had never made toys "safer". It would have prevented 99% of the SJW crowd from reaching adulthood. Making society safer just allows more people who should have been culled by nature to be a pain in the ***.
Ki Sorry there is a thread in this forum claiming that Australians are not only more likely to die from mass shootings but three times as likely and you think the VPC is misleading.
That's pretty poor math. The site doesn't include many justified shootings, so making ANY conclusions from the data is silly. For instance, where's George Zimmerman in the Florida data? Oops.
False premise, that people killed with relation to CCW permit holders is a valid metric for a cost/benefit of CCW permits. How many crimes were stopped by a person carrying a gun with his CCW permit?
There are over 2 million CCW permit holders in Florida, over 12.8 million in the U.S. BTW, those numbers you are pointing out are between 2007 and 2016--almost 9 years of data. So you're saying that among around 13 million people, there were about 222 murders committed in almost 9 years. Chicago would love a murder rate that low...... Also, I would never claim that the most common defensive use of guns is in justified homicide. My guess is that's a very small minority. In most self defense cases, the presence of the gun changes the dynamic in the favor of the one defending himself, and often doesn't require use of the gun beyond brandishing it. - - - Updated - - - Gun control folks are a bloodthirsty lot. The only way they believe self defense has occurred is if the attacker is killed, I guess.
Yup, and over 40% of that ridiculously low number were suicides. The question to ask yourself is.....how many people have those WITHOUT CCW's killed in the last 9 years hmm?
It certainly raises a very disturbing question. Why is a fatal shooting by a CCW permit holder 24 times more likely to be unjustified than justified? "New Stanford research confirms that right-to-carry gun laws are linked to an increase in violent crime." http://news.stanford.edu/2014/11/14/donohue-guns-study-111414/ So RTC laws must be causing more crimes than they are preventing since violent crime is going up due to concealed carry.
One entirely inapplicable to the point you tried to make in the OP. You presented a false standard; continuing to do so after you know the standard is false is simple dishonesty.
Suicide attempts with guns are much more likely to be fatal. We've already discussed this. What is "ridiculously low" is merely your own subjective opinion. When air bags, soccer goal posts, and automobile trunks were causes fewer than 10 child deaths a year, the authorities didn't say, "That is a ridiculous low number. Let's not worry about it." They decided a few lives were worth saving and took action. I think 885 lives are certainly worth saving.
Those are pretty poor reading skills. Why don't you read my post and the page I linked to again. This time read carefully. - - - Updated - - - How is it inapplicable? Stop being vague. I don't think you can win this argument.
When read carefully, the false standard you presented will only become more and more obvious.. - - - Updated - - - I already have -- I exposed your false standard.
So CCW does nothing to increase the chances that someone will have a gun around when they suddenly feel like committing suicide? I don't think so.
Ohhh.. moving the goalposts... again. Clear indication that you know your position is untenable. You are fully aware of the fact you cannot show that people who have CCW permits are more likely to commit suicide than people who do not.
No, it's entirely objective. FAR more people are killed by people without CCW's. Fact. Getting a CCW has nothing to do with suicide. Fact. The countries in the world with the highest suicide rates don't have civilian access to firearms, or very little. Fact. Rope kills more people in suicide than guns. Fact. How many millions should we spend for these 40 or so people per year killed by CCW holders?
400 - some people with CCW's committed suicide over 9 years. 126,000 - some people without CCW's committed suicide over 9 years (this does not include suicides in which guns were used). We need rope control laws, obviously.
