Our Political System is Strong

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by AmericanNationalist, Oct 15, 2016.

  1. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    It's not perfect, but it's strong. About a couple of days ago, I wrote my post denouncing Donald Trump just a couple of weeks after my controversial and misplaced endorsement. I still hold misgivings about having endorsed him. The latest series of statements shows that not only is Trump a danger to our political system, he's a danger to our very society as he continues to call the elections rigged.

    This, from a man who probably doesn't even know how the elections work so I'll give him a full breakdown courtesy of yours truly: America has what is known as an Electoral System(which I do want to reform, but that's a different topic). Each State is given a summary of points. These points are calculated by the total population in a State from the most recent census(which is every 10 years). And so, the next census will be in 2020. For now, we're using the 2010 map.

    Basically, each individual State holds its own election on November, 8, 2016. And the winner of the popular vote in each State wins that State's Delegation points. Each State's points are higher or lower, depending on that State's population.

    (This is why California has had the most points, probably since the 70's. Before then, it was the Mid-Atlantic show.) Now it's California, Texas, Florida and the Mid-Atlantic bracket. That whole Southern/Mid-West part of the country is just for show. You can carry a number of them to help you get to 270, but it's important to win what I dub the 'Power States'.

    The one who gets to 270 or higher wins the Election.

    Now, Bush V Gore aside, there's very few complications in the manner of an election. One of them, is that if the delegate feels he cannot vote consciously for the chosen candidate, he may(as a delegate) vote for either the opposing candidate, OR, a candidate from the House.


    But don't worry Trump, that probably won't happen. But it's the strongest possible 'conspiracy' bet, that the electors would choose from the House if they felt they couldn't vote for Trump. (and Trump be damned, I wouldn't blame them. I'd rather even Hillary at this stage to Trump. Yeah, I'm at that point.)

    What Trump is doing, is just as nefarious to me as speculating that Americans were responsible for the Towns Square bombings. Our fellow countrymen are not terrorists, nor are they blind to justice that we'd have rigged elections like an NK or a Soviet Union.

    We're better than that, but Trump isn't. And that's why he can't be our president. Madam Clinton, let's work together.
     
  2. jackson33

    jackson33 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Funny thing is, I heard much the same things, when Reagan ran for office, the end of everything was coming, a gun totting cowboy from California with his thumb on the nuke button. Well he saved what was left of the country, setting the path for 20 years of massive growth.

    Trump is no Ronald Reagan, but he is also not Hillary Clinton and Ms. Clinton has dreams of a one party America, including SCOTUS, big government, with no possible chance of returning to the Constitutional Rule, which made us great in the first place.

    If Trump does nothing else but nominate the people to serve on SCOTUS, cut illegal immigration in half and try to make government cost friendly, he will have served his purpose...at least for me.
     
  3. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    I'd like to think Reagan would punch you for likening him to Trump.

    Reagan was a conservative, with strong morals. Trump is a fool with no morals.
     
  4. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Reagan dedicated one of the shuttle missions to his deadly enemy, the Taliban. [​IMG] I don't believe Trump would be that stupid.
     
  5. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We do have jury rigged elections. That is in the house where gerrymandering is alive and well. Once the district I was drawn in was completed, I knew then who was going to win the next five elections. That is without a single poll or even a vote being cast. ESP and seeing the future had nothing to do with it.

    I do know what Trump means or should I say I think know what he means by this election being rigged. That is the media concentrating on him, his past indiscretions or locker room talk and paying little to no attention to Hillary and all these wiki leaks e-mails which seem to prove she is one conniving and very corrupt woman.

    But Trump has brought all of this attention upon himself and has no one other than himself to blame. The fact Hillary is getting a free pass by the media, most of it anyway has nothing to do with the election being rigged. It has to do with ratings, money received from ads, commercial advertising, audience, viewership and what Americans as a whole want to watch, hear and see. Trump's past antics is juicy, attention getting, a lot more interesting than some leaked e-mails and Americans tune in to hear about it. The fact the e-mails may be a lot more important in how the next president governs is of little concern to the media, they go with what is hot and Trump is hot.

    Besides the media this election has been all about the horse race and the personna of the two candidates. Very little to nothing on their ideas, policies, possible solutions or visions of where each want to take America. Perhaps the majority of America find the latter boring, it is called substance and maybe the media does too. But they will go with what is hot and with what they think can gather the biggest audience.

    Now this brings me to Gallup's suvey on confidence in the U.S. vote count. Four out of ten do not have confidence in it..

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/195371/s...utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication
     
  6. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    I did say it wasn't perfect. It most certainly is being gamed along demographic lines for political advantage. I wanted to lay out the bare minimum requirement for president and to show Donald that our system is legitimate. We have to at least believe this, or every other faction of our government collapses and with it, sheer anarchy. That'd be worse than Hillary winning, by far.

    To address your concerns of gerrymandering, and my concerns about the corruption that is the Electoral College(It is NOT purely representative that a vote in California holds more statistical weight than any other state in the Union), the solution is very simple: Have the entire thing a popular vote.

    The Founders might not have liked a pure 50+1, and wanted to weigh against incompetence. But the Electoral count actually helps incompetence, allowing the people who segment in larger groups to have a disproportionate vote weighed against their lesser grouped counterparts. The Electoral College does not serve to protect the Republic, unless the Electors act in their function.

    But they're not going to. That itself opens up a can of worms. So it's a wholly inefficient system of governing that allows for more corruption than a pure vote. Others have suggested that we should adopt England's multi-lateral government approach. And I'd be fine with this, it would allow minority groups(such as those of us Nationalists) to get a few seats in parliament(Congress) and thus keeps a party from nominating a extremist in a sledgehammer attempt to get power.

    Of course, coalition government only WORKS in a coalition. The problem, at times evidenced in England(and more frequently in America in the two party system) is that if it's not a coalition, it's just a bunch of chicken hawks squawking at each other.

    In my opinion, we can either have a healthy counterbalance, or the One Party State(which I do support). Since the counterbalance "theory" is only applicable in theory, and not actual political science. But hell, anything is better than what we face right now. Which as I fear and state is: We're becoming the new Iraq.

    As lawlessness becomes the norm, criminal activity rises. As the activity rises, and the more government becomes complacent if not covertly supporting criminal activity, the more our country breaks down as a whole.

    And the more the country is divided by race and a financial war, the less capable we are as a country. And all of this, can be tied to the American Media becoming a NATIONWIDE Enquirer.
     
  7. TomFitz

    TomFitz Well-Known Member

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    Your comparison falls down on any number of points.

    First of all, unlike Trump, who has no experience in government, has never worked for a political party or even served on a board of a foundation, Ronald Reagan had done all of these things.

    He was Governor of California.

    He was President of the Screen Actorcs Guild.

    He has worked actively in Republican Party politics for two decades before he was elected. To be sure, most people thought he was a right wing crackpot, but he was genial about it.

    Which brings up another thing. Donald Trump has no positive message. His speech at the Republican Convention was bleak and foreboding, as is his message anytime he actually tries to talk in his childish and elementary way about issues he knows nothing about.

    Ronald Reagan was also a smart man, Trump is clearly not.
     
  8. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    It's one thing to bring up problems, and we do have problems. But name a country that doesn't? Our problems of political reforms, and in simmering racial tensions pale in comparison to the 2nd and sometimes 3rd world political revolts and civil unrest which leads to violence. Donald Trump's descent on the political scene has actually elevated things to this level.

    Ironically, the so-called Nationalist candidate in this election has not helped things one little bit. And whenever the spotlight goes on him, he blames other people for his own shortcomings. Maybe there were people in powerful places who brought that shtick in the business world but not the American populace in a political setting.

    It's important to discuss solutions to problems, not just to call out a problem. And honestly, the problem lies with all of us. Our politicians are a reflection of who we are as a country. And right now, we're squawking at ourselves just like our politicians have. All of these problems infrastructure, etc, have been there since arguably the 80's when it started to decay.

    And rather than pay attention to these problems, we kicked the can down the road. It wasn't politically convenient. Instead of a balanced solution on gun control, we have to have an absolutist position one way or another. Well, here we are. Like it or not. And we're not going to get out of this rut(similar to the rut of Construction post Civil War) by being Democrats or Republicans.

    But by being Americans. We have to realize: It won't be all Democratic Solutions, and it won't be all Republican Solutions. Instead, let's take the best out of both qualities, leaving behind the garbage so that we can move ahead.
     
  9. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    our political system is rigged in favor of the rich, who are supporting clinton. Trump isn't saying exactly what Sanders is saying, he's saying its rigged technically.

    to many people who feel their vote doesn't count against special interests, its rigged one way or the other.
     
  10. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "American Media becoming a NATIONWIDE Enquirer." That sums it up nicely. That is exactly what it has become. The media isn't the watchdog anymore, investigative reporting is a thing of the past. A lot of the media have taken sides. Oh, they always have, but it has been more covert than overt, not so much covert anymore.

    Then again a lot of folks take these political talk shows on cable as being news and reporting accurate information or news. When in fact they are just promoting the candidate and party they support. It is getting hard to distinguish between the actual news reporting and all these political talk shows.

    On the electoral college, California has the population and thus having 55 electoral votes is earned. What has changed over the last 20 years is the polarization of the states towards one party or the other. You use to have a nationwide campaign where a candidate or political party had a chance in almost all 50 states. That has changed and has dwindled down to around 10. In the beginning the people elected their state legislatures and most state legislatures choose the electors and the electors the president. It wasn't until after the civil war that all states went to the popular vote to determine electors or an elector slate.

    The electoral college doesn't bother me.
     
  11. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Trump is losing because he doesn't have enough support.

    The fact that his supporters want him very MUCH does not negate their lack of numbers
     
  12. TomFitz

    TomFitz Well-Known Member

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    It always has been. Only two of the founding fathers worked thier way up, Franklin and Hamilton.

    Oddly, conservatives seldom mention either one.
     
  13. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    I know our Framers weren't saints. But George Washington was right about working situations pragmatically instead of letting courts decide them. Slower? Yes. But if we had stayed at the tables, the civil war doesn't happen. Wealth isn't destroyed and setting back our communities even further, etc. The Framers put into place a system that would have allowed for success over the long run.

    And today, we pretty much all but reject that system claiming that we've "outgrown" it. Well, if we've outgrown it what have we grown into? It's not an industrial power, we're selling our industrial power overseas! American wealth has become 'the world's wealth' at the expense of our own citizens. I'm wishing I were of age to vote for Ross Perot. He was right. But in 1996, I was four years old lol.
     
  14. jackson33

    jackson33 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    At this point in the election process, nominee's pick and a few day's to the elections....Reagan would be out there working to get Trump elected. If for no other reason, than his dream and apparently yours, Clinton could be the last straw, to the end everyone's idea of conservatism, INCLUDING MINE....

    Eighteen people actively sought the Republican Nomination, including a couple practicing conservatives and were beat out by another group, simply wanting a change in were those conservatives played their hands, THE ESABLISHMENT. For all you or I know, any practicing politician would be controlled by that establishment and I seriously doubt Trump could or would be.
     
  15. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We are watching the political system, which is a corrupt oligarchy come apart. The only question is, will this continue, as the suffering of the average American does not get better? The only way this corrupt system will survive, under the same pressures as FDR experienced is for this robber baron economic model to be reversed, which will get rid of the suffering of the non elites. And if it does not change, and Clinton is not gonna change what she in part helped to create, this system is not strong at all. FDR saved capitalism, by cutting the nut sacks off of the robber barons who were abusing capitalism in their own greed, creating far too much suffering for much of the population. We are seeing the same thing happen today, thanks to the dismantling of the FDR economic model, and turning our economy back over to the sociopathic robber barons. And this, as we saw during the great depression is not sustainable. More so today than then, for so many of our people became accustomed to living wages instead of what free trade and open borders has created for these people. They became accustomed to the presence of the American dream which is gone now for an entire generation.

    These Clinton supporters are supporting the very thing that has created this America today, which so many people are angry over, both sanders and trump supporters. SO when I see an OP such as this, I see someone who is totally disconnected from reality. Who has no clue what the current reality is. And that is some dangerous and irresponsible ignorance. But I do not blame the ignorant, for they have been conditioned overtly, to create an unreality, in the interests of the ruling elites, which includes the puppets of the oligarchs...like Clinton. Trump is a rich elite, but not of this robber baron cabal which has assumed control of our economy and foreign policy, to serve only their own interests.

    I suggest reading some history, what preceded the crash of 29 and the great depression. And what FDR did to these robber barons even as their coup against him failed, thanks to Gen. Butler who revealed the conspiracy to congress. You might notice some names of the conpirators.... Bush, George Herbert Walker, Rockefeller, Morgan, but there were scores of other robber barons involved as well. You might notice that the families of these robber barons are still around today, with a few new ones added. And you might notice that free trade came from one of them, BUSH, the newest robber baron scheme to plunder America for as much wealth as they can bleed from her, into their own pockets, if off shore bank accounts.

    So, this corruption is not sound, not safe. And eventually, it will not be pitchforks, it will be guns. But the founders gave us the 2nd amendent for this reason, for the people to be able to take the republic, a gov't by and for the people back, and in this case, from fascists, Mussolini styled fascism, oligarchy. The rule of the new robber barons.
     
  16. jackson33

    jackson33 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Originally, as I understand the constitution, the people were to choose and maintain control over the
    Federal Government... There were no parties and States chose those to represent their interest. What we have now are two strong established parties, primarily with the same goals and plans or if you prefer...total control over all the States. I understand you and others think people like Ryan are interested in conservative wishes, but I'll suggest most are consumed with their own dreams with in the current political structures.

    I did say, "Trump is no Reagan", but I'd be careful calling Trump dumb or "not smart". He did beat out 16 others to get the nomination and your certainly not dumb, earning billions, reconstructing old buildings into a thriving business, even if 4 of hundreds did not thrive.
     
  17. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Reagan began the dismantling of the most successful economic model we have had in modern history. And he, and those that followed him, turned our economy over, which had served the people so well, creating history's largest middle class, to the robber barons once again. FDR had wrestled their control over our economy, and what arose from that is historical fact. This was reversed with the election of Reagan, who btw, probably could not see where his conservatism would lead...which is oligarchy. He didn't understand what turning these robber barons loose would do to America and her non elites. But that will be his legacy in future history.

    What Reagan did, in dismantling, or beginning to dismantle it, getting gov't out of the way, had little do with growth. The growth would have happened anyways, and chances are, the people would have benefitted from this much more than they did, for they would have gotten more of that growth, instead of it going to the top. Why would that growth have occurred anyways? Well, I was alive back then, and suffered under what the insecurity of the oil embargo created, but more than that, the tripling of energy costs. Such an increase in energy costs will devastate an economy....duh. What Reagan benefitted from, as well as the economy, was not getting the gov't out of the way, but our industry finally adjusting to the tripling of energy costs, and moving forward, with growth coming back. This isn't rocket science, but it is the context many Reagan fans must not understand.

    The blight upon the working and middle class in this nation came from the dismantling of the FDR capitalism, and the arise again of robber baron capitalism. The main tools used were open borders, free trade, and bank deregulation. Remember, these big banks are robber barons. And they were regulated so they would not gamble with your money and crash our economy again. FDR put controls on them, so their sociopathic greed would not harm America and banking would serve the nation, not bleed her dry. As I said the legacy of Reagan, bush, Clinton, bush, and Obama and now perhaps another Clinton will be their contributions to the death of our republic and the rise of oligarchy and robber baron economics.

    Since sanders got beat by the banana republic dems, our only hope lies with trump, who is not of this robber baron cabal. For if he were, he would not be speaking out against open borders free trade, the robber baron newest scheme to tear the bottom out of the working and middle class pants pockets.
     
  18. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

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    Strongly against democracy and the principles of the republic.

    But you wouldn't know that. You don't even recognize the prime principles of the republic.

    Here, I'll prove that again.

    As a Citizen of a state of the united states for America, do you
    understand, agree and accept then DECLARE it is constitutional intent
    that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or
    abolish government destructive to the ideal of our unalienable rights?

    As a Citizen of a state of the united states for America, do you
    understand, agree, accept then DECLARE it is constitutional intent
    that the ultimate purpose of free speech be to enable the unity
    adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to the ideal of our unalienable rights?
     
  19. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, the American political system is dead due to the super rich elites buying own, taking over and then eliminated the free press and media, replacing it with corporate propaganda for which all actual issues related to government, foreign policy and domestic policy are censors and replaced with irrelevant trivial personal-attack contests to make it 100% clear that the American public and voters have no say whatsoever in anything having to do with government. They own the government and control it. We are to bicker furiously amongst ourselves over nothing to keep us diverted.

    Nothing of any of the personal attacks the corporate media and press have limited this election to has any effect - literally none - on my life or the life of anyone else. It is total, irrelevant, diversion. There is no free and independent American media and press - only corporate PR propaganda outlets.
     
  20. rkhames

    rkhames Well-Known Member

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    It is funny how people in this country seem to think that the press is finite in it's ability to publish the news. The fact that Trump brings a lot of negative attention on himself is no justifications for the liberal media not covering Hillary's Pay for Play scam as The Sec of State. Or the fact bribed and threatened the women that accused Bill Clinton of infidelities and sexual assaults. Some people only have access to the liberal press. Therefore, they are only getting a tainted picture of what is going on. That is what Trump is talking about a rigged system.

    As far as the strength of our political system. it was strong up until 1o years ago. Prior to that, there was something in this country call a bi-partisan effort. Neither side pretended that they had all the answers. They worked together to reach a compromise. An agreement that both sides could live with. But when the Progressive wing of the DNC gained control of the House and the Senate, bi-partisanship went right out the window. It was replaced by, "we won, get over it." And for the last decade, nothing has gotten done. If Hillary gets elected, it will be another 4 years of the same crap.

    It is time to resurrect the Blue dog Democrats. Otherwise, the progressives are going to splinter the DNC, and send the moderates running into the Libertarian camp. Then the DNC will be relegated to third party status.
     
  21. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I pretty much agree. Our two parties have over the years been losing people, those who affiliate or identify with them for quite a while. Back in the 1950's when both parties had their conservative and liberal wings the two major parties made up around 80% of the electorate, only 18% identified themselves as independents. By 1980 when Reagan came along the two major parties were down to 70% with 28% identifying themselves as independents. Today according to Gallup, Democrats make up 32% of the total electorate, Republicans 27%, independents 40%. Both major parties strength, call it their base vote are down from 2012 when the Dems were at 35% and the Republicans at 30%.

    This continuing movement of the GOP to the right and the Democrats to the left is leaving more and more Americans without a political home. Most Americans are somewhere in the middle, neither extreme right or left.
     

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