New simulations suggest we may be able to reopen almost everything. But only IF...

I just look to the future and see what's ahead of us. Truth is king here. A. It's going to get uglier because its going to be fall, B. Masks aren't going to save everybody if there's even enough to go around and C. We have to reopen even if the flattened curve went as high as the heavens. It's already beginning to spike, as expected with reopening, masks or no masks, but we can't go back. That is not an option. Its an apples to oranges comparison to say not wearing a mask is equivalent to drunk driving. People know they're drunk, and get behind the wheel anyway. We only think we infect people. Now, if you test positive and still go out, that's a different story. Because only then is it the same as drunk driving. You could try making that law, but you know that wouldn't fly on a federal level. Colorado tried intimidating their citizens with a $1000 fine, and eventually dropped it. One should look up the definition of ransom and then apply it to what governors are doing with civil liberties.

Again, I've woken up here. I know what's coming. Best case scenario is we bite the bullet going into the fall. Doesn't get anymore complicated than that. If it means herd immunity, it means herd immunity. If it doesn't, it doesn't. That is the only way we will proceed. Period. End of story.

 

I understand. It is no longer medical. It is political.

 

Its been political since at least April, especially being in a election year. Only reason I'm still commenting in this thread is to keep the record straight.

 

Just in time to see the number of dead americans tick over 120K

 

Take a deep breath. You are yelling at numbers that people know are wrong but hide behind them anyway. You are a perfect example of Covid hysteria.

 

Good, you didn't say they were killed by the virus. All we know is that they are dead and they tested positive for Covid. There is no way to know what actually killed them because we don't do autopsies on them. We don't know how many people have been killed by the virus. We don't know how many people have been infected. We just scream and yell in a national panic. Go have a beer and a hamburger. It may do wonders for you.

 

They are covid-19 deaths because covid-19 played a causal role in their death according to a medical examiner.

 

First of all wrong! Not only old people die. Second of all, I already explained to you that dying is not the only issue. Life-long consequences are the problem. Children, even those that are asymptomatic, are enormously affected in many ways. Including a disease that is so new it doesn't even have a name yet. They refer to it by their symptoms and, for now they calll it: Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome. They're not even sure what systems exactly it affects. But infertility is almost a certainty.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/children/mis-c.html

All the time they need. There is no other way. Infecting 60% of the people (which is what's required for massive exposure to achieve herd immunity) is not going to happen. And again, even attempting to do it would stagnante the economy, as well as hundreds of thousands of dead or people with life-long health issues.

Right. The Democrats have brought a bill to reduce that number. It's sitting on Mitch's desk. And it's curious. That bill would benefit Trump's re-election campaign. So Democrats are acting against their own political interest to benefit the people. I think that's noteworthy.

 

You want me to prove to you that if you infect 70% of the population, people infected who had cardiac, pulmonary, immune system deficiencies, etc; are likely to either die directly of covid 19 or as a result of the sequels?

Well.. that's pretty obvious to anybody who has read or heard anything about this virus. But you can learn about it here....

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...oure-safe-because-youre-not-old-wrong.573012/

 

If we want to save lives, we might have to force them. Recommending it to them has definitely not worked. If we had a sane government there would be a nationwide campaign of education, and then we might not need to. But certain state may have no choice. Just like we force people to wear seat belts, to go to a doctor before taking a prescription medication, to drive on the right side of the road....

It's nothing extraordinary if it turned out we needed to do it as a last resort. Only children think that they can do whatever the hell they want even if it puts other people in danger.

But if we did need to get to that point it would be yet more evidence of how lousy this administration has been in handling this crisis.

 

First off - I never claimed only old people die .. and 2) once you start into strawman fallacy - going any further is pointless.

 

You said

You: First off - no you don't kill your mom - pop or anyone else unless they are quite old and near death
​

Yes you did!!! As shown by the above quote.

Kudos to you, though. Pulling out of a discussion the moment you realize you had no arguments to begin with is a good move. But pulling out without denying you said what you did say would be more.... gracious....

 

Unbelievable - cherry picking phrases out of a paragraph with the intention to misrepresent.

First off - no you don't kill your mom - pop or anyone else unless they are quite old and near death - for the most part. Yes there is 1 in 300,000 that is allergic to a bee sting - very susceptible to this virus.

In bold is what you left out .. so no - I did not say that it is only old people that die .. and you once again .. have been caught in a lie.

 

So 120,000 people jus coincidently dropped dead over the last few months? COVID had nothing to do with this co incidence?

 

Yes Golem, you are going to have to prove your claim few people with pre-existing conditions are likely to survive. All the evidence is to the contrary.
LOL. You better look over some statistics.

The highest death rate I’ve seen reported for pre-existing condition C19 patients requiring hospitalization is 20%. And only 45% of confirmed cases with underlying conditions require treatment. So out of confirmed cases with pre-existing conditions the top death rate is around 9%. Now to complete our calculations I’d like you to contribute. You need to supply the percentage of infections in people with pre-existing conditions that never get tested because they are asymptomatic or just decide not to get tested when they do have mild symptoms. So you get me that number and we can continue the math portion...

While we wait on you for that number, let’s consider we are already under 10% death rate in confirmed pre-existing condition cases. Now, because states report hospitalization totals differently, there is no hard data on cumulative hospitalizations. But the CDC reports cumulative hospitalization rates of 89/100,000. That gives us a suspicious number of about 295,000 total cumulative hospitalizations so far in the US. But using that number (even though it demonstrates a glaring inconsistency in government statistics), and the reported number that 90% of hospitalizations are of those with pre-existing conditions, we find there have been 265,500 admissions of C19 patients with pre-existing conditions. We already determined 20% of those die. So that leaves us with 212,400 people who survived hospitalization. That is not “few”. Not by number or by percentage. Again, you supply the data of how many unconfirmed cases there are in the pre-existing condition demographic and we can up the number of total survivors and the total percentage of survivors. I trust you have that information and await it’s disclosure.

 

Oh no, you don't. You're not getting out that easy. Adding that it kills those who are for the most part near death does not eliminate the fact that you stated that it doesn't kill mom - pop or anyone else unless they're quite old. Definitely not 1 in 300,000

So YES. You did say it. If you want to correct it now because what you wrote is unintelligible, I would encourage you to do that. But don't tell me you didn't say what is right there, just because you couldn't deal with the arguments in the rest of my post.

 

The fact of the matter is that I did include those who are sensitive to this virus - obviously the 1-300,000 who get a bee sting is an analogy meaning .. not to many others die from this.

You completely mischaracterized my position by suggesting I claimed that ONLY - old people died - and cherry picked out the other information - because you can't seem to post without building some kind of strawman.

If you want to debate what the percentages are -- that fine .. give some numbers. The fact of the matter is that unless one is old and/or have a some susceptibility - chance are that you will not see the hospital - never mind die.

You are spewing falsehoods in my good name ... that is why it is pointless to continue.

 

I already did. But here it is again

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...oure-safe-because-youre-not-old-wrong.573012/

If you are looking to infect 70% of the population, chances are that you won't see the hospital IF you are old or have some susceptibility. If you're lucky, triage would probably just discard you and leave you on the floor in some sort of waiting room (or dying room)

Herd immunity by infecting the population is idiotic beyond belief! And I don't mean doing it. I mean even believing that it could be done in this country is idiotic in and of itself.

 

You are the perfect example of someone who likes to manipulate and minimize by calling names. You have your head in the sand. Get a grip on reality. People are dying. Three times as many have died in the US in the past 3 months than died over 8 years fighting the Vietnam war. This thing is worse than a war. What kind of an idiot likes to pretend it is no big deal?

 

And you can be first to volunteer to be one of those who has to die for the sake of the economy. Be a proud warrior and step up.

 

YOUR bovine excrement STRAWMAN is patently false and it is SAD that it is all you have to offer.

Patently obvious that you do NOT understand the basic GOALS and PRINCIPLES embodied in the PREAMBLE and STIPULATED in the Constitution and the Amendments.

The WELFARE of We the People INCLUDES things like DEFENDING them from a threat like the Covid19 virus and the POWER to do those things was GRANTED to the GOVERNMENT of We the People.

This is basic Civics 101 but not at all surprised that those who are in DENIAL don't have any understanding of these BASICS.

Public Safety falls under both the WELFARE and DEFENSE aspects because the virus poses a THREAT to the ENTIRE NATION of We the People which means that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of OUR government to deal with this threat to We the People.

Perhaps you might understand it better if you imagined that the virus is an ALIEN that is INVADING our nation from outer space. Would you expect each INDIVIDUAL to be responsible for defending ourselves from that alien threat or would it be up to OUR government?

 

Yet AGAIN you are FLAILING around with absurd STRAWMAN bovine excrement that reflects poorly on your abilities to engage in civil discourse.

Sad!

 

WTF?

So according to YOUR irrational nonsense above those who died in the plane crashes on 9/11 were NOT killed by the TERRORISTS but by the plane CRASHES instead?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous your asinine hair splitting has become?

Obviously not or you wouldn't be posting that vacuous drivel.

 

You gave a stat that is meaningless to the conversation. Odds of dying from covid for those under 60 are very low and do not get much higher until you get past 70.

 

You have no clue what you are talking about. Your claim that public safety necessarily over-rides the constitution is patent nonsense on steroids.

I already stated that in some extreme cases ... such as a pandemic - essential liberty can be over-ridden "for a short time" - so why are you repeating what I already told you .. as if you have not been told.