MMT: overcoming the political divide.

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by a better world, Mar 12, 2020.

  1. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    You resorted -- and continue to resort -- to personal insults apparently because you know your arguments have been refuted and you have no answers.
    You claim my forum behavior is childlike, but offer no evidence for that claim. It is nothing but a personal, ad hominem insult.
    I repeat: either quote the passages of my post that you claim are "childlike" and explain what is childlike about them, or admit that you are doing nothing but engaging in personal abuse as a substitute for offering facts and logic in response to the facts and logic I provided.
     
  2. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    A discussion of this point IS in order, please:

    Perhaps it's a good argument for the Peoples Bank of China....

    "The People's Bank of China is the central bank of the People's Republic of China and is located in Beijing. Since July 2017, the PBOC has had the largest financial asset holdings of any central bank in the world. The PBOC was established on Dec. 1, 1948, and is responsible for monetary policy and fiscal regulation in Mainland China".

    Ellen Brown is a fan:

    https://ellenbrown.com/2019/06/14/the-american-dream-is-alive-and-well-in-china/
     
  3. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    https://todayheadline.co/the-case-against-modern-monetary-theory/

    The case against Modern Monetary Theory

    "Thanks to Covid-19, government debt is rising rapidly and, for that matter, appropriately. In the face of recurring lockdowns, we are better off allowing companies and workers to enter a period of economic “hibernation” in the hope that, once the virus is under control, they can thaw out. The alternative of multiple business failures and mass unemployment is of no use to anyone.

    In the process, however, we are in effect borrowing from our collective economic futures. At some point, some of us will be presented with a bill which, if hibernation policies succeed, we will be in a reasonable position to pay. The political process will decide whether that bill comes in the form of higher taxes, more austerity, rising inflation or eventual default. That, I’m afraid, is the deficit reality."


    How pathetic is this assertion from an orthodox monetarist economist.

    The logical conclusion of his argument is that if we had a succession of pandemics, or indeed a severe pandemic of extended duration, then the sovereign currency issuing state would go broke, and we would all starve.

    Despite the fact that the necessary productive capacity and resources required, to maintain individuals and businesses locked down during the period of pandemic-induced hibernation, would remain intact.








     
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  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From what i hear....... within two weeks from today, January 13, 2021.... we may well be hearing some new ideas based on MMT at a whole new level that we had not quite expected....... especially from the source that I hear it will be coming from.
     
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I could be wrong.... but I believe that this third rock is about to experience A MASSIVE DECREASE IN HOSTILITY BETWEEN NATIONS....... for at least a decade if not for even two or three decades. What will shock everybody is that MMT will be made mainstream by what is considered the "political right".... not from the left as we would have assumed......



    The Mark of the Beast????

    I've been working on a variation of this that I was hoping to promote here in Canada.... in order to back up what I've heard will be initiated in the USA.



    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...writings-as-art.534297/page-2#post-1072329875







     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Pathetic" is an excellent word to use to describe such silly, unrealistic and intellectually dishonest assertions.

    It is fairly obvious that what is really being done was deliberately planned for just after the USA Civil War.... and we should learn from history. .... Because there are a lot of extremely wealthy people who want small business owners bankrupted.......... to make people more dependent on the politicians that they control.

    There is also the issue of Antifa riots being within a certain radius of extremely valuable real estate that those riots will tend to decrease in value...... that those same people wish to snap up at a lower price.


    Should we be able to sue our political leaders IF....















     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  7. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    President Biden: beware of mainstream neoliberal "neo Keynesians" ...they have nothing to do with Keynes.

    OECD is apparently now anti austerity – warning, the leopard hasn’t changed its spots – Bill Mitchell – Modern Monetary Theory (economicoutlook.net)

    (the above is a link).

    Excerpt:

    "Last week (January 4, 2021), a number of stories emerged reporting an interview that the OECD Chief Economist had given the Financial Times where she said that governments should not invoke fiscal austerity until well after the pandemic was solved.

    I read in one article that her comments “mark a U-turn of sorts for the OECD, which favoured austerity post the global financial crisis. Now, the economist … is calling for the continued use of fiscal policy up to two years after growth has bottomed out and ditching the “one-size-fits-all fiscal rules” (Source).

    I wouldn’t be jumping to that conclusion.

    The Financial Times published an article based on the interview last week (January 4, 2021) – OECD warns governments to rethink constraints on public spending.

    The OECD economist claimed that “the public would revolt against renewed austerity or tax rises if governments sought to quickly return deficits and debt to pre-pandemic levels.”

    So fear of revolt rather than incorrect economics.
    (my underline).

    She admitted that the OECD and other organisations were wrong in the aftermath of the GFC to impose austerity:"


    (cont. in link).

    The mainstreamers are already sounding the false warnings about the size of Biden's covid recue package, and higher taxes when inflation and interest rates arise down the track.....

    ...because these economic flat-earthers are wedded to the idea of confining money creation to private sector banks operating in the private sector free market.... as if the the public sector (government) cannot play a role in the nation's development.

    They are nothing more than ideologues, serving wealthy private vested-interests.
     
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  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again, I will refer people to an alternate side discussion, concerning this topic:
    more debate about MMT
     
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Park maintenance and street care are already council jobs aren't they?

    Where does UDHR article 23 mention anything about a "right and a responsibility to contribute to the nation's prosperity and amenity, with above poverty reward?"

    So what does this have to do with Biden raising the minimum wage?

    It's very simple: you wouldn't shut down the road system during the construction of your buses, even though it would save countless lives. This means that you don't think that one life is worth saving. The reason is because you don't think that it justifies shutting down the road system.

    Don't you agree that we pay the politicians' wages and they give us nothing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    But always grossly understaffed, like hospitals and home care packages, because of "lack of funds".


    (Interesting question: ... we might learn something about political partisanship, or world view's leading to same).

    Article 23: "Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment. (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work."

    Are you asking why we WANT to work, or why we MUST work? The former to participate in the nation's development, and the latter to earn our living?

    Biden wants to raise the minimum wage as it applies in the both public and private sectors. MMT explains how this can be done in the context of an above-poverty wage JG wage funded by the government.

    The problem with Biden's approach is he will have to confront the usual howls from employers who say it will destroy employment...because the orthodox NAIRU approach pits wages and employment against inflation.

    I think all lives are worth saving, take that as a given. So how do you explain the contradiction?

    Interestingly, I WOULD shut down the non-essential economy to save many lives - the sum of all the "one lives" - in this pandemic (as I have already explained) BECAUSE I can do it without taking/costing any lives; the US is taking a different approach because it thinks the government will "run out of money" if the lockdown persists. Resulting in the current death toll of 400,000, likely half a million lost lives soon.

    Actually, thanks. There's the solution: I could order the cessation of private traffic to "save countless lives" , while the buses are being built. I just need to keep the essential economy ticking over, by changing the numbers in peoples bank accounts....( and perhaps wielding a sales tax on non-essentials) ..maybe the population would say "go for it, I'll enjoy the break" until the buses are ready to go.

    No. Many work hard and have tremendous vision, but the system wears most of them down, BECAUSE taxation is pitted against government services in our orthodox neoliberal monetary system......

    "Where's the money coming from"..... being the usual refrain from the Right.

    I think AOC can draw strength from her awareness of MMT; it's only a matter of time before the errors of the orthodox toads are exposed. This pandemic might j be just the trick, as governments are increasingly forced to trade lives for jobs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No it wouldn't. It would cost countless lives.
    The road system enables transportation of food, medical supplies, patients, etc., and thus saves far more lives than it costs in accidents.
    They give us the entire difference between our societies and societies where there are no politicians, like Yemen, Chad, Libya, and North Korea.
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you're right. I should have specified shutting down the road system to individual commuters. Public transport and freight would still be on the road. COUNTLESS lives would be saved, but nobody would say that those lives are worth it to restrict the road system like this.

    Those countries have no politicians?
     
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    No I'm asking, "where does UDHR article 23 mention anything about a "right and a responsibility to contribute to the nation's prosperity and amenity, with above poverty reward?"

    Isn't this what has been happening for the past year?

    So nobody would be allowed to drive in their personal vehicle?
     
  15. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Lesson 1. Conservatives like to read 'the letter rather than the spirit' of the law.

    Obviously if you have a right to above-poverty employment (can you read the spirit of Article 23?...read it carefully), responsibility to work is implied. Free-loading is not an employment option, in fact "protection against unemployment" is specified.

    No. Politicians everywhere, deluded by mainstream economists, have been allowing economies to open much too soon. Hence the disastrous 2nd and 3rd waves.
    Bolsonaro spelled it out a fortnight ago; his government has "run out of money".

    This pandemic is turning mainstream economists into murderers.

    Already outlined. essential work-related travel (to and form work) is reduced.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    So then what do you mean by "contribute to the nation's prosperity?"

    Why should anyone EVER have worked in the past and why should they work ever again in the future, if the government can simply remove the need for work by "changing the numbers in peoples bank accounts?"

    Which would still result in death on the road. So again, this means that you don't think that one life is worth saving. The reason is because you don't think that it justifies taking all personal vehicles off the road.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  17. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Prosperity includes amenity

    [QUOTE}Why should anyone EVER have worked in the past and why should they work ever again in the future, if the government can simply remove the need for work by "changing the numbers in peoples bank accounts?"[/QUOTE]

    Because the nation has to produce goods and services in order to...

    1. survive.

    2. prosper

    Sometimes the nation is forced into survival mode...

    I think bringiton mentioned risks versus reward. (thank you).

    Did NASA think "not one life is worth saving" (when they lost seven lives)?

    Meanwhile you insist on the right to destroy many lives (in war)......
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What does this have to do with "contribute to the nation's prosperity?"

    True. Any jobs which would not be necessary in order to survive and prosper?

    Absolutely NASA doesn't think that one life is worth saving in the pursuit of space exploration! Otherwise they wouldn't put humans in a metal tube with 11,000 pounds of rocket fuel behind them, sending them into orbit at 18,000 miles per hour! :roflol:

    What makes you think that I'm pro war?
     
  19. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Right, just rulers and courtiers. Politicians answer to a polis.
     
  20. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Mainstream economists have always been murderers.
     
  21. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Amenity: (def.): "a desirable or useful feature or facility of a building or place".

    'Desirable' has value, whether measured by a market place, or improvement in community morale and enjoyment.

    ....prosper, as opposed to mere survival....addressed above.

    NASA believed it took every precaution to minimize the risks. before it lit the fuse, BECAUSE they believe in the value of life.

    You told me. You are complicit in the murder of every child, every civilian who has died in all wars since the veto was forced onto the UNSC in 1946.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  22. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What does this have to do with "contribute to the nation's prosperity?"

    Survive, yes, but why does the nation have to produce goods and services in order to prosper if the government can just PAY everyone? We can become prosperous by the government giving us all the money that we need, right? Isn't that the idea?

    Sure, but even with taking every precaution, people still died. If they didn't do any missions, how many lives would have been saved?

    I told you that I am pro-war?

    How so? Are you also complicit?-
     
  23. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    THEY give you that, or the Constitution gives you that?
     
  24. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Who gave us the Constitution?
     
  25. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Transferred and answered in PF thread:

    Why is there so much hate, and why is the country (US) so divided? | Page 29 | PoliticalForum.com - Forum for US and Intl Politics

    Post #715.
     

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