WHY do people resist vaccination?

No, he is not "well versed in studies on the subject" (or else he'd know that vaccines don't cause autism) - at least, not the real scientific studies. He is probably reading junk science from anti-vaxxers.

Don't for a second think that just being a physician shields someone from believing in junk science. Unfortunately I've met my share of physicians who don't seem to know the difference between junk science and real science.

 

1. Show me evidence that they cause a chronically activated immune response. LOL, are you aware of the meaning of the word chronic, in Medicine? They have only been marketed in the last 11 months, so what is the evidence of anything chronic that you have??? And if anything, we've been noting a FADING immune response. Isn't that, what you had been going on and on about when you questioned efficacy? Now you're changing your tune? Is the "chronically activated immune response" the new fad among anti-vaxxers? Are you aware that the mRNA vaccines degrade and get eliminated from the body in about 12 hours?

You make it sound like a bad thing... well, in a sense, the immune system is activated AGAINST THE SARS-CoV-2, sure, which IS THE POINT, DUH! It's primed. It's taught how to recognize the S-protein as a non-self antigen, so that killer T cells and antibody-producing plasma cells are activated. That's a GOOD thing, and that's exactly what the natural infection causes, which is something you've touted as positive and better than vaccines.

So, pray tell, won't the natural infection ALSO "chronically" activate the immune system against the SARS-CoV-2?

You're all over the place... ANYTHING that will present the vaccines in a bad light, is what you'll do.

You say the vaccines are delivering fading immunity... but now you say it's chronically activated immunity.
You say that natural immunity from the infection is great... but it would cause the same activation.

Do you see how incoherent your arguments are??

2. Show me evidence that any of the Covid-19 vaccines have caused arthritis. And don't dodge the question. Just show the evidence. You don't have it? Just confess that you don't; I know you don't... then, stop spouting nonsense and made-up stuff.

 

Whoa. Do you mean that you actually can't see the incoherence in your argument? You say they cause a chronically activated immune system... then you confess that there is no evidence, because they haven't been used for very long. Yep, like I said above. So why in the hell do you AFFIRM in all letters that they DO cause a chronically activated immune system? If we need a very explicit proof of your evidence-free statements, you just delivered one. Bravo.

Maybe a chronically activated immune response would be bad... if one existed. What is your evidence that one exists? You just said yourself, "the vaccines have not even been used for very long."

An INDISCRIMINATE chronically activated immune response might be bad if it included auto-immune antibodies.

Do you have any evidence that the mRNA vaccines are doing that? Because, you know, this new platform is DARN SPECIFIC. It ONLY targets the virus' S protein. This virus has 29 proteins. It targets ONE. So why do you suppose this new and very focused vaccine, as opposed to say, a whole attenuated virus vaccine, would be causing this indiscriminate chronic activation of the immune system you are talking about?

So now you're down to "it may be causing something with bad effects." Great. And then, I'm the one not being specific. This statement applies to just about anything.

The paint job in our cars may be causing something with bad effects.
Tylenol may be causing something with bad effects.
Watching TV may be causing something with bad effects.
Trekking in the woods may be causing something with bad effects.

You'd have to do a lot better than "it may be causing something with bad effects" to be more convincing.

 

I have heard from a vaccine advocate that the production of these spiked proteins does not go on, indefinitely, though I haven't personally researched it, as I chose to get the more conventional, J & J/Jansen vaccine.

 

I wish Covid and the efforts to control it were just a game as you seem to believe that it is.

I guess the families of the 737,589 Americans who died from Covid-19 also don't think it's a game. That is, by the way, the BIGGEST death toll in the history of outbreaks of infectious disease in this country in our ENTIRE history, including the previous record-holder, the Spanish Flu (675,000). It's also a total that is higher than the American casualties of all the major wars we fought in our history, COMBINED. I don't even start comprehending the idea that it's just a game.

I wish the ABONDANT evidence of severe organ damage in survivors of Covid-19 I just posted about in the post to which I'll link below, was just a game.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/viral-load.592569/#post-1073001035

I sincerely hope that your carefree attitude doesn't land you in trouble. For most people, there is no trouble (mild, asymptomatic cases with no long-term health consequences, after recovery, are still the majority) so statistically speaking, chances for you are fortunately better, of not running into trouble, than the opposite. My concern is that the trouble is not that rare. People usually only pay attention to the death toll, but death is not all that is concerning, regarding this virus. We've been finding organ damage in about 30% of survivors (some studies quote even higher numbers), so that is very significant and very far from a game. Sure, the degree of organ damage is variable. Again, maybe even if you are one of those, it might be mild and transient damage. Unfortunately for a lot of people, it's worse than that, and this will become more and more evident after the acute phase of the pandemic is over, when we then realize the full extent of the damage the virus left in its wake. It won't be pretty. It won't be seen as a game.

When I read several papers and articles on lasting heart damage in people with mild and asymptomatic Covid-19 and then started noticing these cases in my practice (sometimes you miss them if you're not attentive to the issue, and you don't order the right tests and right imagery), cases that have a potential for being silent and asymptomatic for now, but progressively and insidiously result in heart failure down the road, I remember that I told my daughter-in-law who is a medical student: "You should go into Cardiology. Business will be booming." Some leading cardiologists have said "after the infectious phase of this pandemic is over, we may see years later a pandemic of heart failure."

This study, for example, found evidence of heart damage in a whooping 54% of patients who were hospitalized with Covid-19 but then recovered and were discharged:

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/42/19/1866/6140994

Scarier, this other study showed that 45.8% of college athletes at the Ohio State University who had mild and asymptomatic cases of Covid-19 and didn't need to be hospitalized (very healthy young college athletes with no comorbidities) had evidence of heart damage (15% of them, more severe):

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2770645

This virus is no joke. It is best avoided. We don't know yet the full consequences for your health of having had Covid-19, and the more we learn about it, the worse it looks.

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Be safe. Your health is a very important asset for the rest of your life. You don't want this dangerous virus. Sure, it doesn't kill a large proportion of the infected people. but the possibility of damage to your major organs is no game, or if it is a game, it's a game of Russian Roulette.

 

By the way, adding to post #76: his attitude of delaying vaccination for his children was reckless and irresponsible (especially given that he's a physician; I'm appalled). The kids are fortunate that they didn't suffer a consequence (sheer luck) but they could have caught some pretty serious diseases in the meantime.

Here are vaccines recommended from birth to age 15 months:

Hepatitis B
Haemophilus influenzae
Rotavirus
Diphteria, tetanus, and pertussis
Pneumococcal
Polio
Influenza
Measles, Mumps, Rubeola
Varicela
Hepatitis A
HPV
Meningococcal

Several of the above diseases could have killed your grandchildren. You wouldn't be admiring your son's irresponsible attitude so much if one of them, God forbid, caught one of these diseases and died before age 4 (when they fortunately finally got vaccinated).

 

You do have the right to establish your priorities and your lifestyle, knowing that choices have consequences. You have had the virus already and it was a very mildly symptomatic case, so you'll probably be fine.

What I didn't like, was you calling it all a game.

I spent almost one year working (voluntarily) doing some shifts in my hospital's Covid unit to help out, given that they were short staffed - I'm senior enough and my job description is such that I didn't have to do this, but I did it anyway out of a desire to help (at one point I got burnt out and stopped volunteering there; went back to only working inside my job description). But during the almost one year when I helped, I saw a lot of tragedies, saw desperate people losing their loved ones (and feeling guilty when they were the ones who infected their loved ones, out of reckless behavior), saw exhausted doctors and nurses, saw co-workers catching the virus from patients and dying (a couple of them, close and cherished friends); my brother had it, very mildly symptomatic, and two weeks later suffered a devastating stroke that left him incapacitated, with a despondent wife and three kids. So pardon me if I get a bit irritated when people come here and call it all a game.

 

It's also perhaps a US thing. Australia had a big (quality) vaccine shortage and just a few months ago only something like 15% of our population was vaccinated. Vaccines have come in and by the end of the year we will be well over 80% vaccinated with a realistic end goal of 95% vaccinated.

Comparing the two countries, I would say Australians have better social cohesion - and while we are a bit cynical about government right now, we don't have the same downright mistrust of government as some Americans.

 

No, definitely not indefinitely. A couple of months.
2 months, 6 months, maybe even up to almost a year.

 

How many would be seen as having died from the vaccine if the same type of criteria were used that was used to determine who died from the virus?

They were even trying to estimate Covid deaths from excess deaths in the population. A little problem with that if some of those deaths could have been caused by the vaccine.

Also, if some factor prematurely kills off all the elderly and vulnerable who were only 2 or 3 years away from dying anyway, then we would expect to see death rates drop off in the few years subsequent to any increase in the death rate.

 

Oh, really?
First of all, the deaths from the vaccine are a handful. But even if the arguments of the anti-vaxxers were correct, that the 8,000 reports to VAERS were causation rather than mere correlation, that wouldn't change the order of magnitude. 737,000 minus 8,000 is still 727,000.
Second, the correlation held even before the vaccines started being delivered. You forgot this pesky point, huh? We started losing people in large numbers in April, got worse on Thanksgiving... vaccines weren't given to Americans until mid-December.
Yes, excess deaths is an EXCELLENT way to show that the deaths in the middle of a freaking pandemic are not being overestimated. Thanks for reminding us of that.
And only Covid-deniers keep making the assumption that the virus only kills people who would die in only 2 or 3 years. But it hasn't been two or three years since the death rate escalated, so we may still see this effect to a certain degree.
Aren't you tired of issuing nonsense?

 

I hear your pain and I have no sympathy whatsoever for what POLITICIAS (not scientists) did, and I've said MANY times here in MULTIPLE posts that the CDC committed many errors and that Fauci deliberately lied about masks. Also, the up-and-down advice about vaccination and masks was another unforced error. I've ALWAYS lamented this. Ask a poster like @557 - he knows my position about it.

On the other hand, you're mischaracterizing some stuff.

One, people complain non-stop of lockdowns... they were employed in America in April and early May 2020, in heterogeneous way, by most states except IIRC 6, but in variable degrees and for AT MOST FIVE WEEKS and then they were all cancelled, and pardon me, but if you feel it's OK to call it all a game, I'll call what people who STILL complain of lockdowns are doing, whining. Because THERE HAVE BEEN NO LOCKDOWNS IN THIS COUNTRY since May 2020. And the virus itself made a lot more economic damage than the brief lockdowns. Maybe next summer??? What the hell are you talking about? Lockdowns stopped for all 50 states in May 2020. Fact.

Two, people mischaracterize what Democrats said of the vaccines. I'm no Democrat but I dislike mischaracterizations. They protested at a time when the Trump administration was pressuring the FDA to issue a premature approval, before the elections (that is a political objective, not a scientific ones, given that at the time the phase III studies hadn't concluded yet). But they added - and the exact quotes can be found; the second part of the quotes is "conveniently" omitted by Republicans - that they would absolutely publicly take the vaccines IF THE FDA APPROVED THEM WITHOUT SUFFERING PRESSURE. The protest was against the pressure, not against the vaccines.

Your job - well, talk to your CEO. We medical scientists are not responsible for what your CEO does.

Your dialogue with the CDC contact-tracer about how you caught it - if you're not just role-playing and some official did talk to you like this, an individual official not knowing that the virus usually does show up with symptoms (when the case will be symptomatic) within 4 days, but not in all cases, and it can go all the way to 10 to even 14 days, is a poorly trained person.. It happens. Not everybody is competent. It happens in all professions, by the way. You must know of morons in your line of work, too.

Your job and vaccine mandates - again, talk to your CEO. If you didn't know, the infamous Biden mandate is not even in effect yet. It is still awaiting OSHA regulation. If individual businesses are implementing their own mandates, it's actually a right they have (to establish conditions of employment) but it's on them, so direct your anger to the correct entity.

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Yes, there's been a lot of mistakes, and yes, there's been a lot of stupid politicizing. No wonder we are 4% of the world's population with 15-20% of the world's deaths.

This said, yes, some of the scientific views have changed as new data came in. This is a novel disease that has been with us for less than 2 years while other diseases have been with us for millennia, and is an evolving situation as the virus itself has changed, so, duh, the advice has changed too. But what would you want, that we kept outdated advice when data changed, just not to upset you?

What you are calling experts are actually for the most part, politicians. Fauci is a politician. Walensky, the moment she accepted the job of CDC director, became a politician. You can usually trust a lot more, career scientists. For example, two of them resigned from the FDA (actually, retired a bit earlier) in protest for political interference.

If you listen to sources like Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, the Mayo Clinic, Yale, etc., that put together information pages for the lay public, you'll be probably better off than if you listen to the CDC. That's unfortunate. It didn't use to be this way, but both the previous administration and the current one have put pressure on the CDC and the FDA. Obviously I don't approve of political pressure on scientists.

 

I wouldn't call it fear. We just don't trust what the government tells us. The government, both major political parties, elected leaders have filled the airwaves with lies, exaggerations, half-truths, etc, for eons, we plain don't trust what they have to say. It's not so much living in fear, it not believing whatever the government, those in charge say. They bend, spindle and mutilate the truth. They have proven over time that they aren't to be trusted, that they don't tell us the truth, that they do lie and lie quite a lot.

I think we've come to expect this. We rate our politicians, our elected leaders that we elected in the honest and trustworthy category below a used car salesman. The least trusted and honest of any organization or individual. It's like the old joke goes, When can you tell a politician is lying, his lips are moving. In short, I would wager 75-80% of all Americans think their elected leaders are lying SOB's only in for themselves.

 

Fear. We have a vaccine, not a remedy.

 

Well first, the CDC is now under suspicion of inflating the death numbers. Second, if you are such a smart physician why don't you find out what the Uttar Pradesh region of India did with support of WHO. With only 5% fully vaccinated they kicked Delta to the curb with widespread application of Ivermectin and supplements. With a population of around 240 million and only around 25,000 deaths they put our efforts to shame.

 

The COVID tyranny of 2020 was caused by tyrannical lawless Democrat governors at the State level). Trump had nothing to do with any of that.

The COVID tyranny of 2021 is being caused by tyrannical lawless Democrats at both the federal and State levels. Trump had nothing to do with any of that either.

The other fundamental change (dissolving the republic of the USA and replacing it with a tyrannical socialist oligarchy) began on 01/20/2021, the day that the Biden Regime was installed (rather than legitimately elected).

I don't believe you.

Trump had nothing to do with the COVID tyranny of 2020... That was caused by tyrannical Democrat governors in their respective States.

During Trump's term, before the tyrannical Democrat governors closed down their States because Trump's economy was doing so well, and what was supposed to be an election was coming up, unemployment was at record lows, wages were increasing faster than the very low inflation rates, the southern border was secure and under control, there were peace deals being made in the middle east, gas and food prices were low, energy prices were low, etc. etc...

Ever since Biden was installed, our economy has went into the *******. Unemployment has skyrocketed, wages have stagnated, inflation is at record highs, the southern border is a mess, gas and food prices have skyrocketed, energy prices have skyrocketed, etc. etc...

Your definition of "run the country to the ground" must be much different than mine is...

No, I didn't vote for crippling our economy. Our economy was very robust under Trump.

Tyrannical Democrat governors shut it down, dude. It is the DEMOCRATS who did that... DEMOCRATS.... DEMOCRATS....

Blatant lie. Trump's economy was the best that it had been in a loooooooooooong time. Main Street was finally winning for a change instead of Wall Street... Now, under Xiden, it's back to Wall Street winning and Main Street getting **** on...

 

I agree. All politicians lie, and lie extensively. They are much more worried about re-election than about serving their constituents. This is valid for politicians of all parties.

Now, I do think there is a cultural trait here that makes us more suspicious of government. We moved here from England to escape the tyranny of government. That's kind of who we are.

I lived several years in Europe, in one of the main countries there. I could tell that their politicians lied too. All politicians in all countries lie. However, their citizens seemed to still trust them, It can't just be that they're naive, because in general they are usually more sophisticated, politically, than the average American. I think we're just more suspicious of government than Europeans. Regardless of the suspicions being justified, it still seems to me that we mistrust them here more than what the Europeans do.

 

Sounds like he was a president who didn't have anything to do with anything. Who needs such presidents?

DeSantis......tyrannical lawless Democrat governor
Abbott.....tyrannical lawless Democrat governor

Ok, if you say so.

Like I said, I was around last year, so its too early to re-write everything that happened.

Of course not. You only believe party propaganda, even when its a blatant lie.

Yes, because your definition is whatever lie makes your messiah (Trump) look glorious, while I just look at facts and figures. Your boy turned a decent economy (not great) and turned it into heap of horse manure. Every economic indicator was worse when he left than when he took office, and his averages were worst in a very long time.

 

Good to hear! Work is always difficult in that regard since one wishes to be employed to earn a living. Democrats know this, so they are using this against people. I contemplated making the mask mandates my "hill to die on" (willing to lose my job over), but I ultimately caved and have decided to wear it below my nose so I can breathe normally (and thankfully nobody at my place of employment gives a ****). I AM, however, making any sort of COVID jab requirement my "hill to die on". I will not be forcefully inoculated and I will not be permitting any sort of q-tip to be jammed deep into my nasal cavity... not even to keep a job.

I refuse to wear a mask anywhere during my free time, even where masks are required, with the exception of receiving medical care (which might eventually be widely denied to people who are not under a "fully vaxxed" status anyway).

Where people hold the power, IF they would set aside petty differences and not fall for the "hatred and division" game that Democrats play, is in their ability to unite together to oppose such mandates. A company cannot function if X% of their workforce would flat out refuse to work until such vaccination mandates were removed. This is a banner that people should be uniting under, no matter their differences in other subject matter, and no matter whether they decided to get jabbed or not.

We the people have all the power to put an end to this tyranny, if only we would unite under the "no tyranny" banner and be willing to make use of that power.

BINGO. Couldn't said it any better myself!

For me, that was within a couple weeks after it started. I quickly decided that it was all smoke and mirrors, and returned to living my life as normally as possible.

Glad to hear it! I personally never played those games even since the start. I was extra mindful of hygiene at first, but quickly stopped doing that and returned back to my normal hygiene behavior.

Well said! Likewise, I will be doing what I want to when I want to, regardless of what the Satanic weasel Fauci has to say on the matter. I stopped tuning into the CDC and Fauci once they started completely contradicting themselves at every turn... and kept doing it... and kept doing it... putting on full display that they are the blind leading the blind.

It feels nice to take back your freedom, doesn't it? I'm happy for you! The more people who do this, the better.

Sounds quite similar to many areas here in Wisconsin. Across much of Wisconsin, you wouldn't even know that there was (or still is) a "pandemic". Hardly anybody wears masks here anymore, except in Dane County (where it is mandated) and Milwaukee County (where people are willingly enslaving themselves to the mask, and to fear in general). There are some people in Dane County businesses/stores who refuse to mask up (like I do), but the compliance level in that liberal hellhole of a county is unfortunately very high.

Do everything you can to keep that Mayor. We need MUCH more of that type of resistance and "freedom zones" across the whole States of America.

Good for them! Over here, when Evers was ignoring our State statutes and forcing masks on the whole State, the Dodge County sheriff came out and said that he would not be enforcing the mandate and said that he was going to focus his limited resources on things that actually matter.

 

Care to address what I actually said instead of making schiff up?

See above.

Projection.

Trump is not my messiah. Facts are not universal truths nor are they proofs. You are cherry picking figures.

Lies and cherry picking.

 

Show me an actual vaccine and I'd consider it. This experimental treatment is not a vaccine in the traditional sense. While it may be classified as such, according to CDC, it does nothing a real vaccine should. It does not protect the recipient from the virus, every breakthrough case proves that. It's effectiveness wanes quickly, thus the need for boosters. There is absolutely no information on the long term effects. Not taking this experimental treatment seems the most logical choice if one is not in the highest risk group of dying.

 

If you would like information as to what an intentional tweak to someone's immune system can do to a person with an already out of whack immune system, I'll be happy to fill you in on the details. They aren't pretty.