The Second Amendment Has Become a Threat to the First

In my view, with the increasing number of physical threats, including armed threats, which are being made by many against school board members whose policies they don't like, against election officials who counted votes that they didn't like, etc., etc., it's high time to reevaluate the second amendment. I'm of the opinion that Americans, by this conduct, has forfeited the 'right to bear arms' and that it should be relegated to a priveledge.

Clearly, the framers never intended for 2nd amendment to infringe on the first. But, they couldn't have foreseen what is happen which appears to be the ultimate result of the polarization of two parties, the politics of which did not exist when the Constitution was written and ratified.

Now, I'm not for 'banning guns' altogether, I'm for repealing the second amendment leaving it up to states to set their own firearms policies. Let those states who love guns, have them, and those who don't, ban them or regulate the crap out of them. Isn't that the libertarian way? To make sure of this, we could change the second amendment to say that the federal government can create no law to ban guns, and it would specifically state that firearm policies to be left up to each individual state.

is that fair?

Also, for states that abuse the priveledge, the new 2a would allow for congressional hearings to evaluate the conduct of the citizens of states, insofar as their not abusing the priveledge (in the fashion some citizens are now), and if they are, and it's too pervasive, the priveledge could be revoked for a period of X years, depending on the severity of the abuse, and such a ruling should have a clear super majority of the house, noting the specifics of which in the new 2a would be negotiated as it would be drafted.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/second-amendment-first-amendment/620488/

Firearms are having a documented chilling effect on free speech.

Many Americans fervently believe that the Second Amendment protects their right to bear arms everywhere, including at public protests. Many Americans also believe that the First Amendment protects their right to speak freely and participate in political protest. What most people do not realize is that the Second Amendment has become, in recent years, a threat to the First Amendment. People cannot freely exercise their speech rights when they fear for their lives.

This is not hyperbole. Since January 2020, millions of Americans have assembled in public places to protest police brutality, systemic racism, and coronavirus protocols, among other things. A significant number of those protesters were confronted by counterprotesters visibly bearing firearms. In some of these cases, violence erupted. According to a new study by Everytown for Gun Safety and the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED), one in six armed protests that took place from January 2020 through June 2021 turned violent or destructive, and one in 62 turned deadly.

In short, the visible presence of firearms increases the risk of violence and death when exercising one’s First Amendment rights. The increased risk of violence from open carry is enough to have a meaningful “chilling effect” on citizens’ willingness to participate in political protests.

 

1. In your view is the second amendment not merely to protect the arms of the national guard not individual citizens? If so, shouldn't your ire be directed at DC v Heller, not the 2A itself?

2. Private citizens cannot violate the first amendment as they are not Congress. Civilian attempts to restrict freedom of speech are either legal or fall under other statutes (trespass, assault , etc)

3. There is no evidence carry increases violence.

4. This is all a moot point, because any constitutional amendment can be vetoed by 13 states and there are 16 in the South alone.

Compromise time: mandatory death penalty for anyone who shoots someone for their speech.

 

Do you have the number of school board members, or Congress that were shot when we integrated our schools with Blacks? People get angry and they say things they don't mean. But I don't remember reading any school board members being killed or even shot over this Critical Race Theory these schools are teaching. Yes it's wrong, it breads hate and we have enough of that going around already. But I am not for giving up the freedoms we have. We have the Democrats stomping all over our First and Second Amendments already. If a person is mad enough to want to kill another for what they say, there are many other ways to do it besides a gun.

 

Who will decide when someone is being abusive, you? How about me? I'm curious, why did you put the federal government (congress no less) back in charge after claiming that the states should have all the authority? Your idea is pure pie in the sky and will not accomplish a thing other than taking guns away from law abiding citizens.

Did you really assert that the founders and framers had no idea that some would use their weapons for nefarious purposes???

 

As usual, ignorance is the preferred weapon against our constitutional rights. The presence of firearms increases the risk of violence and death, and thats why politicians have armed security.

I love the line about assembling to protest police brutality while pushing laws that make cops the only ones carrying guns!

The"visual presence" of a firearm in anything but chilling for reasonable people and those not on the set with Baldwin. It is just another symptom of a disease we call woke-ism.

 

Ire should be directed at the conservatives on the court who continue to grotesquely misinterpret the 2nd A.

 

That, in and of itself, is not the problem. The problem is people not just expressing opinions but making violent threats, sometimes while wielding an AR-15.

https://www.msnbc.com/all

 

Don’t expect these types like the OP to know much about the constitution.

 

While the WH sics the FBI on parents simply expressing their opinions at school boards.

 

Just an idea. I'm using everyone's feedback to judge the efficacy and viability of it.

And, no, not me, but a bipartisan panel/committee assigned to the task.

My view is based on the notion that a state who collectively abuses gun ownership to such an extent it should morally forfeit the concept of gun ownership as a 'right' and replace it with gun ownership as a priveledge.

That, to me, makes more sense. Why shouldn't health care be a right, and gun ownership a priveledge? Today, it's the other way around, and that to me, is insane.

If you study deep into the weeds of history, you won't find much about the federalists and anti-federalists making the grand argument about gun ownership as an individual right, there was much more arguments on their concern for preservation of the state's militia ( and that of Virginia's, specifically ). In fact, that issue was never completely settled until DC v Heller, which was decided on a party line vote, 5/4 noting that Scalia's rationale distorted historical facts. That's not a very strong precedent, especially that it's rather recent.

 

Healthcare as a right means I have to pay for your healthcare. There is no such requirement for gun ownership. I can choose to own or not own. I ask nothing of you for that right.

 

Your desire which I have emphasized here indicates you have no idea what a right actually is.

 

As no rights, even 2nd amendment rights, are absolute, their remains room for debate, not outright dismissal in the name of faux patriotism.

 

How on earth is good health considered an unalienable right bestowed by God? Natural rights have no relationship to material things and well being but only the rights inherent in all people for individual liberty.

I quote some old hard precedents from our forefathers and a couple of others:

1. "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." G. Washington
2. "No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." – Jefferson
3. "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason [Though controlling their health is a close second......]
4. "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest" - Mahatma Gandhi
5. "Every good communist should know that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao Tse Tung

I can't help it if SCOTUS couldn't get around to affirming all of it for 200 years. Just goes to show what the hell they know; or maybe it was simply viewed as prima facie self evident without need of clarifying for the uninitiated.

 

I disagree somewhat with your position.

I believe that as a constitutional right, it is not up to states to ban firearms or for the Fed to allow states to ban them.

With that said I have always thought that concealed carry permits should be nationwide with a single permit allowing CC across and into any state in the US...probably up to 9mm in caliber. (Admittedly I dont know a lot about guns)

Anything other than that, for example, open carry, more powerful weapons etc., at that point should be left to the states.

 

That's because you don't value freedom. Health care isn't a right because it has to do with how someone chooses to live their life which is a concept inherent in freedom. Firearms are a right because it presupposes the tyranny of men, mobs and government, against which an armed populace gives pause.

 

So... not the second amendment itself?

 

We don't have a second amendment problem we have a dysfunctional society problem. Everyone's been whipped into a hateful frenzy through propaganda and it's only going to get worse as long as media and politicians fan the flames.

 

All your black Democrat voters shooting themselves and everyone else didn’t convince you of this, nooooo, but the mere whisper of a republican threatening your Marxist teachers covering up rape and omg the 2nd has to go.

you’re really on a roll with the long winded tripe today

 

Usually when unarmed right wing protesters show up anywhere, they are assaulted or murdered (Portland case) by Antifa fascists. Bringing guns along discourages that.

Your post ostensibly defends the 1st Amendment, but the left’s track record lately for defending and upholding the 1st Amendment for all is abysmal.

To the left, the 1st Amendment is only sacred when they are using it, but opposition should not be heard. It should be censored, shouted down, or countered with violence.

And you call the opposition “fascists” when, in fact, the left is acting like fascists.

And now you claim that conservatives who speak up are “scary” because they might be gun owners, so we should repeal the 2nd Amendment.

Nope.

 

I agree with you on health care. If we had it for everyone it would take a big financial burden off of business and allow them to increase wages and benefits. It would also make them more competitive with foreign companies.

But your wrong about how our forefathers felt about the right to own arms. They were very much for it.

Gun Quotations of the Founding Fathers
Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.

If you know of a gun quotation from a Founding Father not listed here, send it to us. (But make SURE it's not already listed. Okay?)

Back to the main Famous Gun Quotes page.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stephens Smith, son-in-law of John Adams, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
- Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

 

Without the right to own arms, our First Amendment is threatened along with all other rights we have.

 

It's called "The Bill of Rights", not "The Bill of Privileges Granted by a Super-Majority of Members in the House of Representatives".

 

that is a bogus argument.

Taxpayer funds are the property of the US Government. Owned by 'we the people' i.e., everyone, collectively.

Per the US Constitution, the Government has a legitimate claim on a portion of income.

That portion IS NOT YOURS, it is the government's. The Government, therefore, spends money that belongs to the government.

You, therefore, cannot possibly 'pay for my health care'. That is contrived logic made by right wingers to forward a right wing agenda, which is destructive to America. More damage to AMerica has been achieved by the right's 'neoliberal' policies than any movement in history.

How it is spent depends on the policies of elected officials.

That's a thing called 'democracy'.

How taxes are spent, here's a fact for you, everyone gets pissed because there is no way all tax expenditures are going to please everyone.

You say you complain about how tax money is spent?

Well, welcome to the club. So do I, so does everyone.

It's in America's best interest that everyone have health care, and making it a right puts America on a better path.

What put America on the path where more gun deaths per capita occur in America compared to the other western developed nations was the Second Amendment, which lead to gun worship to a level that has become a sickness.

 

Congratulations, you've scratched the surface of all the available arguments, writings, discussions on the subject which were occuring during the late 18th century, and committed the logical fallacy of cherry picking. It is foolish to think the founding fathers would establish a government only to provide for its undoing by violent armed mobs

There is a thesis, entitled:

THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT: WHAT THE DEBATES AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION AND THE FIRST CONGRESS SAY ABOUT THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS
By JEFFREY P. CAMPBELL

https://shareok.org/bitstream/handle/11244/9064/Campbell_okstate_0664M_12057.pdf

Which destroys your premise, but it takes about 100 pages to do it, and due to the 16,000 character limit placed on us by PF, I can't do it.

It might behoove you to read it, whenever you get the time, because he goes much deeper into the subject than most NRA types ever have who keep putting this bogus narrative forward.