Question concerning West Bank

I didn't ask for a reason for the blockade. I said the blockade exists.

And, your last paragraph is LAUGHABLE. Human beings living in the conditions of Gaza, the open air prison run by Israel, are NEVER going to see that as legitimate. ALL humans will fight back against that kind of treatment.

And, the same goes in West Bank. When Israel comes to bulldoze your home, you aren't going to accept that as a legitimate act.

You are pretending that the acts of Israel are ACCEPTABLE.

And, that is LUNACY. There is NO legitimacy to the conditions experienced in Gaza and West Bank.

If you want to rail against terrorism, fine. But, you can't judge rockets fire by Gaza to be terrorist while also judging Israel's jet fighters and bombers slaughtering Gazan civilians, destroying their hospitals, water supplies, electricity, etc., and blockading them against the wealth that is their birthright, their human rights of travel and commerce, their full access to healthcare and food, etc.

 

I appreciate your stated support of an eventual peace between Palestine's native residents and the Israelis but don't you think that America's unconditional support of Israel's expansionism and illegal Occupation only negates any motivation for Israel's right wing to make peace?

Thanks,

 

It's not an illegal occupation, it's Disputed Territory. When territory is used to launch a war of aggression, the State that repels the aggression may legitimately occupy that territory until it can be turned over to a peaceful partner. In this case it's more complicated as the last nation state that administered that area was the now defunct Ottoman Empire.

Israel has been settled in this area for 3,000 years, Arabs since they defeated Christian armies in the 7th century, 13 centuries isn't as long as 30, but, it's certainly a significant period of time.

Jordan illegally annexed it, then lost it to Israel when they launched and lost the 1967 war. The Disputed Territories had Palestinian neighborhoods, and Jewish Neighborhoods, both of which predated Jordan's attempt to illegally annex the area. Both communities are expanding and expanding housing to accommodate that growth. When the final lines are drawn, very likely, some of the Palestine areas that are now on the Israel side of the Green line, may be drawn into the New State, while some of the Jewish neighborhoods on the Palestinian side of the Green line may be drawn into Israel. I've heard that adjustments of just a few percentages of the total area will accomplish this, but, Palestine will not be a Jew-free area, and Israel will not be a Palestinian-free area.

I believe you said you live in Israel, so you have a much better vantage point that me, but, in most Democracies, the Left has their view, the Right has their view and the deal makers are the Middle that provide the majority to the winning viewpoint.

In my view, it seems to me that Israel deeply longs for peace, and as soon as the attacks have died down for awhile the middle moves toward permanent resolution. Hamas sweeping Palestinian elections temporarily stopped the movement toward a permanent solution.

It may be that the Jewish right never supports a 2 state solution, but, they didn't before, and progress was made anyway.

How much of an obstacle to peace are the Palestinian Right?

Please share your thoughts.

 

A 20th anniversary:

 

@WillReadmore, @Ronstar

You never answer my questions. You never provide sources for your claims. You don't even understand some of my questions, and I guess that's because you know very little about the region and its history.

At the link are the words of a well-known, extremely active anti-Israel Palestinian. Listen carefully.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1633510646397517824

Full speech:

 

Firstly, I appreciate your willingness to discuss this frequently volatile topic calmly and with civility.
I hope you also realize that in spite of my criticisms, I fully support Israel's right to exist and wish the best for the many peace seeking Israelis. I fear that Israel's rightward movement can only mean more bloodshed.

I fully believe that 2 people can disagree about an issue and still do so in a civil and respectful manner. Being able to communicate with other people around the world is supposed to be an enjoyable past time so why ruin it with sarcasm and snarky quips?

I should clarify that I a not an Israeli but in 1973, I intended to visit Israel after I had spent 10 - 11 months walking and hitch-hiking throughout Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon etc where I was "kidnapped" by the driver and treated wonderfully by the locals in spite of being an obvious Westerner.

When I said "kidnapped", it was quite frequent when I was hitch-hiking for the driver to simply insist that I meet his friends and family who had never seen a blue eyed Westerner and we would attempt to communicate for hours while I spent days in their village looking at nearby archeological wonders.

I only picked up a little Arabic and my various hosts and audience spoke no English, German or French but we were still able to communicate. They were fascinated by America and anything to do with America; American movies, American cars, American music and, of course America's Middle East policy.

Among the questions I was most frequently asked were:

1. "Why do Americans hate us?"

2. "Why does America help Israel kill the Palestinians and take their land?"

Re: # 1.
I tried to explain that because of Hollywood's relentless stereotyping of Muslims as villains and MSM's egregious pro Israel bias many Americans had been professionally deceived and confused about Middle Eastern realities but that most educated Americans did not hate the individual Muslim people.


Re: #2.
Again, I tried to explain that just because AIPAC and similar right wing Israeli lobbies control America's Middle East policy doesn't mean that the loyal and educated American people support Israel's ethnic cleansing and land theft.

It was my impression that most of the Muslims I met were very impressed by America and what America had accomplished. They seemed more hurt than angry at America's egregious double standard but they couldn't understand how people as clever as the American people could be so easily deceived and manipulated nor can I.


Re:

I'm afraid that I don't see the same desire for a just and equitable peace except in the minds of a few Israelis.
Most Israelis only want a peace with all of Palestine's native residents dead and gone.

What incentive do the Right Wing Israelis have to make peace?(1) They know that their lobbies will always manage to extort $ Billions every year and that Israel's spies can steal America's Top Secrets with impunity?
What incentive does Israel have to make peace when they know that they can always count on Israeli lobbies to get America to fight its big wars? (3)

My overall contention is that there can never be peace in the Levant without an even handed Middle East policy. Violations of UN Resolutions by Islamic countries are met with swift and brutal military force while violations of UN Resolutions by Israel are dismissed and even rewarded with gifts of America's most sophisticated weaponry.

I am not optimistic about peace in the region as long as there exists such an egregious double standard in America's Middle East policy.
Wherever you find injustice, violence is soon to follow.

I, too, am interested in your thoughts.

Thanks,







(1). "Israel Does Not Want Peace"
http://www.haaretz.com/peace/1.601112

EXCERPT "Rejectionism is embedded in Israel's most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone

Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides.

The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project. From the dawn of its existence, there has never been a more reliable or more precise litmus test for Israel’s true intentions than this particular enterprise. In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell. "CONTINUED



(2). "ISRAEL WON'T STOP SPYING ON THE US"
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/16/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757.html

EXCERPT "The Jewish state’s primary target: America’s industrial and technical secrets.

“No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do,” said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, one of several in recent months given by officials from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the State Department, the FBI and the National Counterintelligence Directorate." CONTINUED


(3). “QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”

AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

 

There can never be peace as long as both sides are influenced by bigots, haters, and those who seek to minimize and deligitimize the suffering and humanity of the other side.

 

Which claim specifically would you like a source for?

 

Has President Abbas ever apologized for his Holocaust denial? There cant be peace with people who deny the Nazi's massive crimes.

 

We were so incredibly stupid in Iraq, and then with that screw up still in progress, destroyed Libya and intervened in Syria. We have a war machine that seems to be out of the People's Control. Regaining control over our Military, State Department, Intelligence Community, pretty much, much of our Federal Government has to be a top priority of the American People.

If I read your 3rd point correctly, you blame the Jews. I blame us. It's our job to control our government and we have failed to do so. I too have experienced how people want to like the People of the United States even while they find the foreign interventions of our government, intolerable, and while I appreciate that grace, I'm not convinced we deserve it.

On the current topic, I infer that you have seen injustice up close and personal and so have a vantage point that I do not have, and I hope for your safety.

And while you mentioned the danger to the peace process that resides on the Jewish right, I don't see where you have commented on the danger to the peace process offered by the Palestinian right.

And I do think that in time there will be more progress. Egypt and Jordan have recognised the Jewish State's right to exist and it's long been claimed that further acceptance by other Arab states could only occur after the 2 state solution was in place, but, within the last 3 years, The United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Morocco, and (to a lesser extent) Bahrain, have all moved further toward cooperation with Israel, as has Saudi Arabia.

 

I do not believe you can blame the negative views of the Palestinian people, including the exceptionally negative opinions held by Republicans and Evangelical Christians on Hollywood or the mainstream media. Plus, America looks like IDIOTS if our international policy decisions come from Hollywood.

It can't be dodged that America is strongly influenced by religion.

Hollywood and the MSM are made up of corporations that survive by producing what the people want to hear.

I'd also point out that the American people have a SUPER low view of the government of Palestine, even though the UNSC certified their capacity as a country and President Abbas has worked tirelessly toward a negotiated solution to borders, security, etc. Abbas has the trust of the IDF, including the fact that the IDF favors Abbas being armed to allow him to take action against terrorism.

The result is that more than 60% of America wants Palestine to fail.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...ming-in-u-s-views-on-israel-and-palestinians/


The real answer to the question you were asked is that America hates Islam and wants Palestine to fail, probably almost entirely due to Christian religious views of today, but probably also the fact that Christianity sprang from the ancient roots of Judaism.

(I'm glad you chose something else to say!!)

 

LOL!!! Didn't you say a few months ago that Israel had stolen $5 trillion from the USA and is responsible for all American conflicts in the Middle East, North Africa, southeast Europe, western Asia??? Yeah you did.

 

There is no possibility of ignoring the global impact of the US position on Israel.

The world is NOT oblivious to the miss match of our claims of values and our implementation in Israel and other locations.

After the Egyptian revolution, the people examined ideas of government and discarded those that looked too much like the US for the very reason of our regional action and their experience with us.

You can argue against the US being solely responsible. However, we do want to be a factor, and that is not helped by many of our actions in the ME - including actively supporting the continuing Israeli atrocities in their war on Palestine.

What are ME Muslims supposed to think that we stand for?

 

The USA is complicit in atrocities all over the world. Committed by all sorts of people. Doesn't mean Liberal Democracy is not the best for of government.

 

We take overt actions that ensure that those atrocities continue with NO identifiable interest in a peaceful resolution.

If you can find comparable examples, go for it.

I'm all for Liberal Democracy. I've consistently promoted that.

I don't see our promotion of Israeli action as having ANYTHING to do with Liberal Democracy.

In fact, Israel is working hard to move AWAY from Liberal Democracy.

 

America's unconditional support of Israel's expansionism and ethnic cleansing is just as detrimental to the US as it is to Israel because it takes away any motivation Israel may have to seriously negotiate for peace in good faith.

It's time to use that aid in the US until Israel is serious about really wanting peace.

Thanks,

 

Do you also give 0.0% shits about who controls the USA?

 

We have immense economic and political power.

We could allow the UN to take the steps that the UN wants to take, for example.

Palestine has applied to WHO for their assessment. We told WHO that if they answered Palestine, the USA would ensure the defunding of WHO.

We've taken similar actions in the UN and its various departments.

So, it is not just our direct military and political support for Israel.

It is also the economic and political assault BY THE USA on Palestine, even over HEALTH issues.

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...ming-in-u-s-views-on-israel-and-palestinians/
[/QUOTE]
I don't think you are accurately representing your poll.



Americans do NOT want Palestinians to fail.

 

What's at the base of the intense hatred some Arabs have for the Jews?

MISS IRAQ RUNS FOR OFFICE

'We last saw Sarah Idan when she was Miss Iraq in the 2017 Miss Universe pageant. She made international news when Miss Israel posted a photo of the two of them on Instagram, with kind words about Ms. Idan. That caused predictable blowback in the Arab world, causing Idan to issue an apology in Arabic. It wasn’t enough; her Iraqi citizenship was revoked and her family fled to another country.'



We've heard about the Jewish right, but no one seems to want to comment on the Arabic and Palestinian Right and how they impede the process for peace with the Jewish Nation in the Middle East.

This beautiful young lady discusses another group, the US Left

'Idan intends to run as a Democrat, but her fury is reserved for that party’s left-wing elements:'

'She already knows what her first campaign will be: rooting out “crazy far left and woke voices” in her own Democrat party obsessed with so-called “white privilege.”'

“Shut up—-because you have no idea how privileged you are,” Idan said.

'The fiery feminist and human rights activist has spoken out against extreme left Dems, such as Minnesota Rep. Ilhan Omar, blasting her for her incendiary comments about Jews and Israel.'

“I don’t stand for your anti-American, anti-Semitic, Muslim Brotherhood agenda, using this democracy to further your…Islamic socialism goals of dividing and weakening our country,” Idan tweeted.

“I would just be the opposite of Ilhan Omar. I’m a Democrat and liberal, but I don’t think like you – I don’t hate this country,” Idan noted.

Now THAT'S What I'm talking about. Some wonder if there isn't a staunchly anti-Semitic core in the American Left and that is what drives this constant hatred for Israel they drone on and on and on and on about.

 

You're right. The U.S. does have "... immense economic and political power."

Unfortunately, that "...immense economic power and political power is controlled by AIPAC, similar lobbies and America's infestation of disloyal "Israel Firsters".


"How the Israel Lobby Controls US Foreign Policy in the Middle East"
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-israel-lobby-controls-us-foreign-policy-middle-east-matthews

EXCERPT "Israel has been able to get pretty much everything they want in terms of expanding illegal settlements, billions in US foreign aid money, the wanton killing of Palestinian civilians for alleged “self-defense”, and the overall continued genocidal Apartheid occupation of a brutalized population in the prison-like ghettos of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In other words, the situation as it exists in the occupied territories is neither good for the US or Israel." CONTINUED

 

I don't think that you'll find any rational person who would condone the treatment of Ms. Sarah Idan but I wanted to address a point that you have mentioned frequently:

Re:

Of course I condemn the disgusting treatment she has received and I condemn the US installed Iraqi government that persecuted Ms. Idan and her family.

The difference is the elephant in the room: Israel's militant Right Wing gets countless $ Billions in "aid", complete access to America's most advanced weaponry, unconditional support for Israel's crimes in the UN and the reassurance that America's craven, Israeli controlled politicians will send young Americans to fight for Israeli expansionism.

Now, compare the amount of aid given to the P.A., the weaponry shared with the P.A. and the degree to which American G.I.s are to be sent to defend the Palestinians.

The only way that the US will ever see anything close to peace in the Middle East is to initiate a more even handed Middle East policy instead of unconditionally bankrolling Netanyahu's bellicose Right Wing extremists.
Even record numbers of Israelis are rejecting Israel's new Right Wing:

"Israel sees one of its biggest-ever protests"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64929563

EXCERPT "On Saturday, protest organisers said as many as 500,000 demonstrators took to the streets across Israel for the 10th consecutive week, in what the Haaretz newspaper called "the largest demonstration in the country's history".

About 200,000 people turned up in Tel Aviv - many carrying Israel's national flag - to rally against planned reforms by Mr Netanyahu's hardline government.

A BBC producer in the city described the protests as the busiest yet, with a non-stop flow of demonstrators packing the streets until late into the night."CONTINUED