Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law...

Good attempt to accuse me of the same thing that you're doing

 

So you should be terrified that you have a criminal actually in the office of the President. Right?

 

It's their way to avoid having to look at the facts. Because they know the facts available overwhelmingly point to his guilt.

 

He is guilty of what?

 

What you don't seem to get is that there are competing opinions. If we are sitting in the court of public opinion we would have a hung jury. In other words, your opinion only extends inside your small world.

 

In this case, Trump is guilty of business fraud. He used his money and power to make two problems facing his potential presidency go away. In both of these cases, if this information about what he did with those 2 women was known to the public, he would have lost votes and not become president. So he paid them to be quiet and used money from the campaign to do so.

Simply stated, he is guilty of having been a manipulator of facts in order to keep information away from the public for his own benefit.

 

We'll see. I will respect the jury's verdict, whatever it is, after it is reviewed on appeal.

But I genuinely shudder at the spectacle of people with their minds all made up before even hearing the witnesses and the defense.

None of you are fit to serve on the jury. And if EVERYONE thought as you do, they'd all be "challenged for cause," and there could be no jury at all. And without a jury ....

 

exactly, even the school shooters that kill themselves are technically innocent as they were never found guilty in court..... but the public doesn't have to go by that

 

we have the tapes, in Trump's own words, if the evidence backs up the words on the tapes, guess we see

unless Trump makes a plea deal, it's in the hands of the jury now

 

I don't have any tapes. What tapes do you have?

 

Generally, I would agree with your statement about judging people before the "facts" are known. I do believe a person is "innocent until proven guilty".

Nonetheless, in this case and knowing the history of Trump, what he believes in and what he has done all his life, which have been made perfectly clear throughout his life and even more so as President, makes the probabilities of him being guilty be 99.999%. I no longer need incontrovertible evidence to know he is guilty. In addition, it does not matter to me whether he is found guilty of this "specific" accusation given that he has proven that he has the mind of a criminal and that he is guilty of "many" things for which he should be in jail for any of them. As such, whether it is this accusation or those-to-come, he deserves to be punished in some way.
.
Clearly stated, he is a bad man that deserves what is to come.

One thing I have learned (the hard way) about life is that there is Karma and Karma will always end up winning, in one way, shape, or form.

For example and using Trump's tutor, Roy Cohn. Cohn's Karma was a horrible death by HIV. Cohn and Trump are basically the "same person". Both loved each other and thought the other was a duplicate of each other.

You should read about it and learn who has proven to be the most influential person of all in Trump's life. Read about Cohn and understand who Trump is.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/19/roy-cohn-donald-trump-documentary-228144/

 

Your cognition and ability to read is really very poor.

I said YOU were a current Democrat. I never said that I "am" a Democrat. I was a Democrat a long time ago. First person I ever voted for was Bill Clinton, and have slowly become more and more Republican. Last time I voted for a Democrat (in anything) was in 2012. The Democrats have become so absolutely radical that there's really no chance I ever vote for another Democrat ever again. That ship has sailed so long ago now, that I barely consider myself having ever even been a Democrat at this point.

Anyway, I think it was quite clear I was talking about you. I'm questioning if you are even American. Do you even live in the U.S., or are you from another country? ... perhaps English is your second language, and that's totally OK. Just curious.

And yes, I think him being indicted will absolutely help him. You also are very selective when you quote, intentionally leaving out the most key points that people make, and respond to snippets where, when alone, look absurd. The most important take-away is that this opens the door for Republicans to now charge Democrats in the future, for pretty much anything. I mean... we just charged Trump supposedly for allegedly misclassifying something on his taxes. This is grand. Imagine some of the things we can actually charge Democrats with? I'm excited, to say the least... this is the best thing that could have happened in a long time. I can't wait until the tables are turned. I'm going to really, really enjoy it.

 

Great example!

 

let me look for the one they released, they have not released them all

it's in this recording, Trump says to use cash

 

Well... that's a relief. I was concerned that people who were more interested in election results than the rule of law were somehow infiltrating our party.

I'm not the topic of this discussion. The fact that Trump is a proven criminal is. And you have made it clear that you just don't care. So I guess that's that.

Thanks for playing....

 

Some of us follow daily events, and have heard witnesses and the defense. We have heard Trump committing a crime by pressuring the Georgia State Attorney to "find me the votes". We have seen Trump claim that documents that belong to the government are his. We have read Mueller's evidence of Trump obstructing justice. We hear Trump calling for people to pressure Mike Pence to interrupt a legal proceeding... and then people doing that... and then Trump NOT doing anything to protect his VP... or the legal proceeding.

Why should people not believe what they see and hear? Is it because Trump told us not to?

 

May I interfere in this conversation to put up some data and facts?

2020 election:

Biden = 81,283,501
Trump = 74,223,795

Biden won by 7 million votes even though Trump got over 11 million more votes than he got in 2016. Where in the world can it be imagined that Trump will get even more votes than in 2020, especially since the votes he needs would have to come from Democrats changing sides back to Trump due to this indictment. Heck, if I was a Democrat that did not vote in 2020, I would be more ready to vote in 2024 against Trump because of this indictment than not. After all, most Democrats hate Biden and this is just more fuel for that hate.

In addition:

5 reasons Biden won in 2020

1) Covid (has gone away and Biden will get recognition for it)
2) Low-key campaign (nothing different now than then)
3) Anyone but Trump (that feeling has not changed, in fact grown)
4) Stay in the centre (that has not changed, especially if Biden remains the candidate)
5) More money, fewer problems (only thing that has changed in favor of the Republicans but inflation and the immigration crisis are likely to be gone by 2024)

I do not see this indictment helping Trump as the only ones that seem to be upset about it are the people that already support him and voted for him in 2020. I don't see him getting any "new" voters that voted against him in 2020 or that didn't vote at all. After all, getting indicted officialy is negative, no matter what. Especially when it comes to fact that the indictment not only brings to the forefront the fact that he cheated on his wife twice (a proven negative with all people) and that he lied and used money to get rid of the problem (also proven negatives to all people).

I do not believe this indictment is going to help Trump at all, except with the people that support that kinds of things being done.

 

"Thank you for your service, potential Juror #47. You are excused."

 

I think much of this is rather short-sighted. Biden isn't getting credit for COVID going away, he's getting the blame for the lockdowns, masking, and now, excess deaths... even though it was Trump who initiated the lockdowns. Most people are not at all happy with how Biden handled COVID, they feel as though he didn't fix it... he just took advantage of it.

What do you mean stay in the centre? What is this... is this a spelling mistake or are you from another country (which would mean your opinion is likely skewed and less valid)? Or, more specifically, do you think Biden is in the center? The things he's done are about as radical as they get. Most of us view Bill Clinton as being in the center... and Bill Clinton's views are nearly identical to those of Trump's.

I also do not understand what you mean by more money, fewer problems? There has been a deluge of government spending, and there are nearly twice as many problems now than there were when Trump was running. The only way the immigration crisis ends is if central America runs out of people. It's been escalating, the news just isn't reporting on it as much. What exactly do you mean "inflation will be gone by 2024," and under what expertise are you making these assumptions? Inflation doesn't simply reverse... that's deflation. Are you saying that we're going to see some deflation? Or do you not understand that inflation merely sets the new normal? Under Trump, the middle class had grown, the lower income class had shrunk, and wage growth had increased for the first time since the 1980s. All of that has been reversed, there are fewer people in the labor force participation, and while the unemployment "looks" good, it does not count all the people on disability, those not looking for work, etc. There is a general malaise going on in this country right now... and it's not because of Trump.

I'm just not sure I understand how you're viewing this. Look, I live in Florida... so things are pretty fantastic over here. But I know most of the country is not experiencing that. I don't know what everyone's career is here, but for those of us in specialized careers that are in high demand, the pay is always increasing... but for most people in the United States, they're living paycheck to paycheck... more today than they ever have been. Large companies are starting to lay people off en-mass. Even if this is just doing this to take advantage of the perceived economic down-turn (to get rid of dead weight at a company), it's still contributing to it and is in effect leading to further economic downturn, even if we're arguing that one is not there. 401ks and retirement accounts are down... people are not happy. Things are not great.

Personally, I don't see any chance in hell that Biden even runs again. I think he's already decided he's not running, he's just being told to stay in there to keep the heat off potential challengers, but I fully expect him to step aside and not run for reelection.

 

There is no "nonetheless," no matter how bad he is. We wait until all the evidence is presented and the arguments are made, and even then we respect the decision. Or we lynch.

I am happy to see Trump punished if he is found guilty. I will be equally happy if the jury hangs (can't reach a unanimous decision) or if they find him not guilty, regardless of who
his mentor is and regardless of everything else.

"This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!" A Man for all Seasons

Join me in this, please. Or join the lynch mob. It's one or the other.

 

There are several things that you are not thinking about in your evaluation.

The first thing to consider is that the next election is not now but in 18 months. Covid is no big deal at this moment and will be less in 2024. Biden will get credit for that even if the things you mention are true. Bottom line is that under his presidency, Covid was beaten.

Secondly, centre means "middle of the road". Biden has always been MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. He has NEVER been on the extreme of anything. He attempts to work with left all the time and has done so for 30 years. He has not changed on that, no matter what you believe.

As far as spending is concerned, the bottom line is that spending is not as much of a factor given that his spending has been done under circumstances that the spending is covered by additional income. Biden will end up with a lower Debt problem than what Trump left him with. Then again, spending is something almost every president has done for 70 years and is never a big problem.

The immigration problem is not as big a deal as you state given that we have had an immigration problem for 70 years and no president has been able to solve it. As such, people are accustomed to the problem already and is not something "new" that will affect their voting. The Republicans cannot truly offer a viable solution given that Trump tried and was not able to do much either. As such, even if the situation remains as it is now, it is not something that will give Trump additional votes,

As far as your statement about Biden not running again. That is pure speculation on your part but even if he doesn't, you (and none of us) know who Trump will be running against. It could be against someone even better than Biden. In fact, someone else running, other than Sanders or Warren, would probably be more successful than Biden, against Trump, given that the negatives that Biden does bring to the table would not exist with another candidate. It is very doubtful that anyone other than Biden is older, more senile, and more incompetent.

I think that Trump is a loser anyway you see it. I don't see him being president again under ANY circumstances.

 

I only have one thing to say in response to your post. For over 30 years, this country has been heading down. Education is down, unity is down, honor, respect, morality, ethics, principles and humanity are down, worthy accomplishments are down, and the worst thing is not only that they are down but that the opposites are growing (stupidity, hate, uncaring-of-others, and lack of accomplishments) are up substantially. This is not of Trump's doing but Trump did cause it to speed up substantially.

I do not see that a solution is in our hands. I don't believe there is an American alive that could change this trend. As such, what will need to happen to fix this, is a catastrophe occurring where it FORCES people to change (unite, think of others, increase intelligence) to combat it for pure survival.

Unfortunately, that solution (catastrophe occurring) is not something that is in anyone's hands. It is in the hands of Karma or Mother Nature and none of us can predict when either of them will step up to do something.

 

Ok

 

Terrible example. See my separate response to Freshair below.

 

That is grotesque and specious. Shooting up a school and the children in it is indefensible in law and morally outrageous.

You can safely assume at this point that Ms. Daniels was paid money, yes, just as you can assume that Daniel Klebolt murdered children. It does not follow that Trump is guilty of falsifying business records or of violating campaign finance laws, because you have to assume two additional things to get there: 1) Michael Cohen is telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; and 2) Trump knowingly authorized the payment for no reason other than to affect the outcome of the election.

One cannot sensibly and fairly do either.