Is birth control next?

How much brain activity is required to establish personhood?

 

this is being managed as a project. roe was the critical path as the movement was built and violent terrorists recruited, and the xtian sheeple propagandized into a mob. if you wish to study "emotions of the ignorant," join a mega church.

 

^^
. Just another example of how the (D)ishonest prey upon the emotions of the ignorant.

 

that was funny!

 

Republicans will go after birth control next

 

Do you really want an answer? Because brain death actually does not different between brain death and brain stem death. EEG is rarely used as a criteria. It is about ability to react to stimuli and ability to maintain independent functioning at a level to preserve life

 

This guy could have used some birth control.

 

Yes I want to hear your answer. I have no dog in the abortion fight. If ya’ll want to abort the little bastards it’s less crime etc. later on.

I’m just curious where YOU draw the line. Because a 3 month old child does not have brain function sufficient to preserve life. And fetuses have activity in the brain stem at a few weeks gestation. Brain activity shortly thereafter.

Again, I have no emotional attachment to the issue I’m genuinely interested in where you draw the line.

 

Biologically its not.

 

Nobody is talking of “post birth abortion” I thought the term “ability to sustain independent life” would have drawn that line? Viability is the cut off. Now the line between viable and non-viable has relatively remained static for decades. Before 24 weeks the chances of survival plummet and I keep in mind what a friend who was a NICU nurse described to me once - they had a 22 week baby admitted - they knew the poor wee thing was destined to die but the parents wanted everything done. Understandable but she talked of how fragile the skin was and how every intervention tore skin and how they had to watch the inevitable deterioration with brain haemorrhage that occurs in the “micro premmie”.

Again for me, viability is a cut off. Anencephalics - no issues with “late term” terminations as there is no forebrain. Some of the “Trisomy” syndromes that we know have poor outcomes some more fatal foetal syndromes are listed below


Severe hypoplastic left heart syndrome
Pentalogy of cantrell
Osteogenesis imperfecta type II
Lethal form of hypophosphatasia
Thanatotrophic dwarfism
Phocomelia
Severe asphyxiating thoracic dystrophy
Anencephaly
Severe hydrocephalus
Severe encephalocele
Bilateral renal agenesis (Potter's syndrome)
Autosomal recessive polycystic kidney disease (infantile type)
Trisomy 13
Trisomy 18

Not every baby is a perfect Gerber baby

 

Classic Monty Python. I post it myself every so often when the more rabid “right to life” group are displaying medical ignorance

 

pretty sure 3link is dropping atomic bombs of sarcasm, but I could be wrong....

 

I was interested when you believed there was sufficient brain activity to confer personhood. Not only in a fetus, but someone in a vegetative state as well. I was trying to get this post fleshed out a little.

Ok, so viability to survive without placental involvement is achievement of personhood? Not really anything to do with brain activity, more of a physical development of other non brain/CNS organs issue for you?

Yeh, post birth abortion isn’t cool yet. Give it time.

My reference to 3 month old baby was to point out a 3 month old baby does not have enough brain development/activity to be viable on their own. They are still dependent for nourishment, protection, hygiene etc.

The viability and personhood arguments are far too subjective for me I guess but I’m open to other people’s views and the scientific and logical basis for them.

Agree on anencephaly etc. But probably should be the mother’s choice. Immediately fatal conditions are a bummer no matter when the death/termination occurs.

I had a calf this spring born with large portions of the upper and small portions of the lower jaw missing. It did not have a traditional cleft palate which is rare but does happen and is generally fatal as we don’t surgically repair and they are usually severe enough the critter can’t suck. Anyway, if took a lot of attention to get it going (learning to suck a bottle and then the cow). It lived for about three months but must have had some other internal condition because it died with no visible symptoms of disease the other day. It’s hard to know what to do with animals with conditions that don’t favor survival but I like to give them a chance if not in pain. They are usually the ones with the sweetest personalities. And their mothers always love them.

If such decisions are difficult and painful in animals, how much more so in babies/children.

 

Personhood is attained at birth when the one is no longer attached to, and part o,f another human being.

Abortion has been around for thousands of years. Killing babies also has been.

One doesn't depend on the other.

They are NOT inside of, part of , attached to, another's body.

They are an independent body.

What cows have to do with this I don't know....is it to bring emotion into the issue?

What TF does a cow's personality have to do with anything??? OMG..

 

Thanks for your opinion. As I already stated, I have no emotional attachment to the issue. I stated in this thread I don’t care how many of the little bastards get terminated as it has measurable positive impacts on violence and crime.

Another poster made a claim that personhood is determined by brain activity. It was not my claim. I asked for clarification on the amount of brain activity required for personhood both in the fetus and vegetative adults.

Instead of answering my question, the other poster instead changed their claim to personhood being achieved at viability, so 24 weeks gestation approximately.

She (who is an adamant supporters of women’s right to abortion) also included a caveat of extending late term abortions to fetuses with lethal natal diseases and genetic abnormalities. I simply agreed with her on the lethal pre natal exemption for late term abortions.

My anecdote on the calf was just to demonstrate that losing a pregnancy or child to a lethal condition during pregnancy or immediately following birth is almost always traumatic for parents and that the decision on whether or not to terminate by abortion isn’t always easy. Why does that bother you? I like animals and people and don’t like to see either die. What’s wrong with that?

Yes, many civilizations have killed children and even adults for religious or other reasons. It’s not yet acceptable in western cultures but at least we are moving towards euthanasia for consenting adults.

Chill. You don’t have to be so emotional. I’m not out to take your abortions away!

 

Kindly explain the biology. A tadpole is the larval form of an amphibian. It is the amphibian at an early stage of development. Check the taxonomy of Homo Sapiens and then tell where I can find the genus and species of a human fetus. Sorry but you haven't studied enough biology to make the assertion you made.

 

None. A fetus has all the genetic information of an adult. It is not a different species. It is just the adult at an early stage of development. The argument isn't science. It is emotion and the desire to rid oneself of the consequences of pregnancy. Above I dealt with a person who doesn't think a tadpole is a frog. I'm still waiting for the taxonomy of a tadpole.

 

Like I said, two different things.

 

No. It is a single thing. The larva doesn't die or disappear. It develops into an amphibian. No change in genetic information, no change in genus and species, only a change in appearance. I'm an old man who no longer looks like a young man. I look like an old man but I'm the same living being I was when I was young and born and before I was born. I'm trying to correct your knowledge of biology. Accept it. I've had some formal education in the subject.

 

A change in appearance would be a different skin color, tadpole to amphibian is complete change in both form and function.

 

Same animal. different stages of life.

 

Still massive change in both form and function.

 

LOL, you brought emotion into it with the "Sad Momma Cow" and "animals have human feelings BS...scenario......

...and comparing women to cows is demeaning and pointless..

 

I agree genetics determines species.

Back to brain activity. Do you support “pulling the plug” on brain dead people?

Again, I have no agenda here, just looking for opinions.

 

Are you saying mothers of neither species have emotions in relation to their offspring? I’m concerned that you get too emotional about words posted on a forum. I see a big difference between the emotions of a (human) mother who loses a child to a fatal condition 3 days after birth and your continual meltdowns over opinions on PF.

Apparently you do not have much background in biology. Are you saying animals don’t feel/exhibit grief, sadness etc.?

I don’t believe I compared women to cows. But in the case of their attachment to their offspring we most certainly can. Remember YOU are an animal, just as I am, and the cow and calf in my anecdote. We are all just different species of animals. Don’t go getting all uppity because you can type and a cow can’t. She can do things you are incapable of…