Comparing the college scene, May 1970 with April 2024.

One must have an open mind. But not so open that your brains fall out.


“There is a distinct difference between having an open mind and having a hole in your head from which your brain leaks out”
-James Randi

 

Oh I see the argument. Because US don’t finance HAMAS , US student don’t care how many innocent people Hamas kills?

Let’s save lives wherever we can?

You mean Hamas aka Palestinian government can fire 20,000 rockets toward Israel, but Israel can’t fires back? Is that how America saves lives? I assume you apply same argument for Ukraine aid, right? After all when Ukrainian fire backs, innocent Russian dies. Or is this principle only apply to Jews? everyone can fight back, but jews needs to sit tight and wait for “Messiah to come and save them”.

The reality most of American lives , USA will continue funding Israel to fight back at any Mother f&&& who wants to wipe them off. May be someday you will grasp the reality or not. Who cares, it wouldn’t make any difference.

 

Nope! Read again!

 

Yea I did .. every time I read , I am amazed how many ways to articulate “ destruction of Jews”.

 

Now that you understand, where a hat!

 

I am talking about:

1- protestors who openly engage in pro Hamas comments and chants that refer to killing off all Israelis and justifying using terrorism to do this with chants referring to the geographic location of Israel needing to be removed of all jews by any means necessary;

2-protestors engaging in holocaust inversion, i.e., accusing all Israelis or supporters of Israel as being genocide killing Nazis;

3-misppropriating the word genocide only to be used to discuss the IDF actions against Hamas while ignoring Hamas's use of Gaza civilians as shields to die or condemning what Hamas did or acknowledging Hamas has indicated each day on the media and in its charter it is engaged in a holy war to remove all Jews from the planet earth;

I trust that is now crystal clear.

As for you referring to what the IDF does as genocide I again will be crystal clear. You have zero proof the IDF is intentionally killing civilians in Gaza only because they are Palestinian. You know damn well Hamas uses them as shields. You know damn well the IDF has a moral obligation to retrieve its hostages and defend its people. Hamas as you know as well have stated they will not stop attacking innocent Israeli civilians and will not release the hostages and will not stop using Gaza civilians as shields. So ignoring all that and calling what the IDF does genocide ignoring the deaths could have and would have never happened if Hamas did not engage in what it did and continues to do what it did.

So I clearly reject your allegation of genocide and again refer to the following argument Golem:

"Genocide is not a figurative term describing a mass killing or used to express the shocking spare of civilian lives during a bloody war. Genocide is a legal term, carefully defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide that the UN adopted in 1948 after the Jewish Holocaust. It was a result of the moral and colossal shock that the whole world experienced owing to the helplessness of the international community and in particular international law to prevent or respond appropriately to the Nazis’ deeds and ideology. According to the convention, genocide is a crime committed against groups (national, ethnical, racial or religious) with the intention to bring about their destruction in whole or in part. Yes, this intent to destroy is embodied by one or all of five acts defined by the convention: killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the group’s destruction, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. But it is not the acts on their own that bring about genocide. It is only when they are accompanied by the special intent to destroy a group that genocide occurs."

source: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/isr...de-in-gaza-a-international-legal-perspective/

 

No Golem, "from the river to the sea" refers to taking the area known as Jordan, the West Bank and Israel and turning it into a Muslim caliphate. It has always meant that and unlike you I know it traces back to the Mufti of Jerusalem and the original Palestinian nationalists who wanted to kill off all the Jews in Palestine. I know this because I read their own words in Arabic to Arabic audiences and the context in which it was and still is used accompanied by anti semitic cartoons.

Also Golem please, with due respect don't tell me a Jew, that it does not offend me because I am not Israeli. It offends me and many Jews who do not live in Israel and might I say moderate Muslims and Palestinians, Christians and all kinds of people.

It means especially when combined with the phrase "by any means necessary" and further sentences before and after such chants, wipe out the Jews in Israel.

When Nasser used it, when Arafat used it, when Hamas uses it, their references are clear it means the extermination of all Israeli Jews not peaceful coexistence. Stop trying to pretend it does not mean that and has a new meaning.

Why you try white wash it and tell Jews it does not mean the genocide of Israeli Jews is beyond the pale.

 

Your silence on what Hamas did speaks loudly to your lack of intellectual integrity. No more need be said.

 

I'm not. Those should definitely not be tolerated. I'm talking about protesters who pressure for a ceasefire. Netanyahu is slaughtering civilians. And we are funding it. That needs to stop.

Semantics is the least of all problems that are happening in this conflict.

Got it!

Makes no difference. Intentional or incompetence... civilians are dying by the thousands. And that needs to stop.

Again: I'm not interested in debating semantics. I think "genocide" is appropriate. Netanyahu KNOWS that innocent people are being killed. And he knows the capabilities and limitations of the IDF. Therefore, this is Netanyahu's policy of genocide. But you can use another word, if you want.

 

I do not hesitate to unequivocally condemn the actions of Hamas on October 7, the pretext for Netanyau's subsequent slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent Gazans and destruction of their homes.

Whether you attempt to justify either is your business.

 

The Vietnam war was never a civil war.

It was a war of communist aggression and started by North Vietnam against our treaty ally.

Much of the rest of what you said was accurate. The protests against the Vietnamw ar were mainly self serving. If it were not for the draft the protests would have been trivial,

One major difference is that the organizers of the modern protests do not gibve a damn about palestinians or israel. They are simply communists using this issue as a means of sarting protests so they can incite some deaths or violence which can in turn lead to another summer of violent riots like they did with BLM.

They actually hope for another Kent state incident.

 

Wild Bill the man I always have debates with-I will say this to you. Back in the Vietnam days I would have been about 12 to 14. I am 68. So I do remember it on t.v. and at that age all the musicians, actors, and anti war movement leaders and of course I was anti Vietnam war.

I never thought of the Viet Cong or the North Vietnamese army. I did see stories of a corrupt South Vietnam puppet government but I did not know or give much thought to American GI's as anyone but people forced to go fight a war.

Then I met Vietnam war vets who moved to Canada and witnessed their ptsd and worked with some. Now what emerged is a perspective far different than just the anti war media. I forgot vets are walking history
books and until we speak with them, we won't understand. Then later I volunteered in Israel and yah I saw ****, bad ****, so I returned back to the lessons of my father a career soldier, that to understand history one must speak to the vets and listen not just to what they say but what they do not say.

I know you know this. So I may be at times a bleeding heart because I detest war BUT I know American soldiers from the Gulf War, Afghanistan, I had relatives who fought in the British, US and my country Canada's armed forces. I also met many Vietnam vets, Korean vets, WW2 vets and as a very young man visited WW1 vets.

So what I say to you and anyone reading this, protestors most times have never been to war or been in the arena of conflict. Their comments and chants reflect this naivite and false assumptions of who is right and wrong and who are the victims.

All I know is in any conflict innocent people die and idiots far from the conflict zone are quick to cheer on one side and look for a demon scapegoat to blame.

All I ask is this protestors speak to Palestinians and Muslims who had to flee their countries because they would not agree with Muslim fundamentalist terrorists.

All I ask is they actually speak to someone who wore a uniform and had to go after terrorists and put their lives on the line. This idiot notion they have the IDF soldiers or American soldiers deliberately wanted to kill civilians and were the demons means what? It means someone is being duped into buyinng a simplistic moral fairy tale exploiting their ignorance.

I have witnessed how Hamas, Fatah, etc., use civilians and get them killed. To now cheer on their behalf calling them freedom fighters is despicable. People have no clue how much Hamas loaths Palestinians and has open contempt for them. Not a clue.

This I tell you and all Americans, Wild Bill. America has the perfect right to challenge certain things the IDF does or what Netanyahu wants to do. I have no problem with that. Criticism from France, Britain, I have no problem with. All 3 earned the right with their stand in the ME. I get it.

Calling IDF soldiers genocide killers I challenge. We disagree on **** but time and time again I trust the US to be the no.1 source to somehow help get a truce. I have full confidence in the US to do this.

 

Well... I oppose that. I'm only mentioning that the slogan has been used by people who want that, by extremists in Israel who want the opposite, and by groups that fight for a two-state solution. Likud used it in their 1977 manifesto, and stated that it meant ""between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party#google_vignette

The phrase was originally popularized by the PLO, and they have been struggling against Hamas and in favor of a two-state solution. To them, what the students say is what it means.

If it is used to offend, it's wrong! I'm only pointing out the fact that protesters who used it stated that it was not intended to offend. So I asked how that would work if you publicly state it means "inclusion". It sounds counterintuitive that they would say that if what they sought was to offend.

I'm pretty sure Likud's use of the slogan also offended many Palestinians. As far as I know, unlike the students, Likud has never clarified that they mean "inclusion", like the protesters have.

 

I do not justify 1 civilian death on either side. I state any death of an innocent civilian is a tragedy. Our difference is I think the word genocide in relation to the IDF claims a deliberate attempt to kill Palestinians.

I do not think it is. It does not mean however the IDF may not have engaged in excessive force or mistakes. If it can be proven IDF soldiers deliberately killed Palestinians that is a war crime.

For you to state what you did above given some of your extreme views is appreciated. So I reciprocate. I do not come here to justify any killings. I have but both Israelis and Palestinians in bags or tagged their body parts. I am not part of the specialists who do it. I was a damn pathetic volunteer cleaning streets and helping out to prevent the swarm of flies and maggots and rats.

I am nobody Natty. I am a shadow that cleaned streets and pulled worms out of sores. I do not claim to be a moral angel or expert. I do not want anyone dying. I know soldiers who have committed suicide and families whose children died. That is all I know. their tears, their ptsd symptoms. I hate it all.

The idea any child must suffer Palestinian or Israeli or anyone else, is a damn tragedy. I am not here to defend excessive force. I am not here to say we abandon a two peace peace solution. I am here to say though Hamas is right now a more immediate threat to Gaza civilians than the IDF and in my opinion the sooner they are removed from holding civilians as shields the better.

I know damn well if there is an offensive in Rafah civilians will die. I know that. Do not think I cheer for it.

Thank you for your comment.

 

why are you soaking up right-wing propaganda? sure, there are some bad actors that use 'from river to sea' to express genocide (Netanyahu used this phrase too, btw), but most expressing it want other things (return of land, Palestinian state, etc). How about taking those at their word instead of just gobbling up whatever their opponents tell you it means? Same reason why I'm not going to ask a Democrat what a Republican believes or ask a Republican what a Democrat believes. Go straight to the source instead.

 

Genocide is when one side kill other side. in this war both side is fighting and attacking. Only reason those 8500 ( only in 2024) rockets didn’t kill any Israelis because Israeli government care about their people and defend them. unfortunately Palestinian government aka Hamas don’t mind if their own people die.

You want to save innocent lives? Tell Hamas to end the war today.

 

Golem you know you are my no.1 person to read. I debate out of respect no other reason because I know you understand debate. Thanks for your responses. I get you I just disagree on some stuff. As for your comments on Likud comments I totally agree with you if I did not make it clear. To be even more accurate not just certain Likud members but other right wing parties they are in a coalition with have made very hateful comments yes Golem.. Some of them are hateful and extreme on the other side of the coin and I use the exact same challenges and criticisms on them and this is why I have told people I have an open Labour-Kadima Party bias but I am not Israeli and do not presume to tell Israelis or Palestinians a damn thing.

They have to solve their own issues please. The US can help but they have to do it. How we get the moderates back together on both sides I do not phacking know right now.

I hate the many deaths in Gaza as much as I hate the Hamas terror attacks.

Thanks for the respectful debate. Others too who have responded to me. All of us damn it hate the deaths on both sides. I get that. I admit my emotional biases up front.

 

This is why I never believe any negotiation is possible with pro-Palestinian. Time and time it has been said “ river to sea..” is offensive to Jews.

Yet post after post, Pro-Palestinian argue how “ river to see” mean something and it is jews who has problem with the slogan. . they can’t even give up a “Slogan”, and they want rest of the world to believe they will give up land and make peace with Israel? Two state solution means both side give up something, Palestinian can’t give up a “slogan”. I would believe in UFO before I believe Palestinian would give up some of the land and negotiate with Jews.

 

Netanyahu's propping up a terrorist organization to impede Palestinian statehood turned out to be a very bad idea. He is hellbent on clinging to power to avoid corruption charges, but I hope the Israeli people get the opportunity to express their democratic will.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our facesp/url]

Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided


According to a survey of more than 700 people carried out by the Israel Democracy Institute this month,
57 percent of the public rates Netanyahu’s performance as “poor or very poor,”
​

 

Palestinian civilians are not attacking anybody.

 

Thanks. I hope nothing I have said was offensive to you.

 

I'm pro-Palestinian, pro-Israelis, pro-Canadian, pro-Mexican, pro-... EVERY nationality in the world.

I AM however anti-Hamas, anti-Netanyahu, ... and anti-ANYBODY who believes that the innocent people of a country deserve to be slaughtered for what those who rule them do.

 

Sure, if you don’t want innocent to be slaughtered then go protest against Hamas aka Palestinian government to stop the war. As long as Palestinian government fire rocket over the sky of Jerusalem, innocent Palestinian will die.

The world is far more complex then “ I am anti-innocent slaughter, so I ask everyone to stop fighting and get along”.

 

Sure.

First, the West Bank isn't "Jewish Territory" its disputed Jewish Administered territory.

Gaza isn't disputed, it's Gazan territory, but since was used to stage an invasion, I assume Israel will administrate it until the Gazans can elect a government that recognizes the Jewish State's right to peacefully exist behind secure borders.

When the West Bank does the same, the final lines will be drawn between Israel and the new state of Palestine.

As for the parallels with the '70's: 'at Kent State they were protesting in support of the mass murdering Khmer Rouge regime and today’s protests are in support of the mass murdering Hamas regime!'

So yeah, I can see the comparison.

https://instapundit.com/645504/

 

Fake News. This war started when Gaza invaded Israel and deliberately targeted, raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered hundreds of young Jewish women.

The IDF is not deliberately targeting civilians, Gaza is deliberating using Gazans as human shields so that they can continue the war, conceal the terrorists, and hide the hostages from the IDF.

The pro-Hamas Dems are losing this argument with the American People. That's why the Blue Cities are starting to send in the cops, that they previously defunded, to break up the campus riots, because this isn't helping them in the polls, like they hoped it would.