A deal between Iran and China shows that 'getting tough' doesn't solve the US's problems

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by FivepointFive, Jul 26, 2020.

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  1. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, Israel has been active, to put it mildly, in ensuring there is nuclear non-proliferation in the Middle East.
    Now we need to get Iran, North Korea, Russia and China to get together and stop America from proliferating
    nukes around the world.
     
  2. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    Neo-mercantilism will not correct the imbalances created by globalization. We either have to wait for the water to level or we have to withdraw from the hundreds of trade deals that have been put in place in the last 30 years. There really isn't a lot of in-between.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No kidding - If you were Israel would you want Iran to have a nuke ? What does this have to do with US/France being responsible for opening the Nuclear Pandora's box - not China/Russia.

    The west has already allowed for proliferation - its a done deal - You can't stop what has already happened - unless you figure we have mastered time Travel - can go back in time - and stop the US/France from doing the stupid things they did.
     
  4. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, has America provide nukes yet to Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Germany, Belgium, Holland etc..
    I mean, America should first spread nukes to its friends before it starts arming its enemies.
    Did America secretly send fizzile material to Iran and North Korea, behind the backs of their own
    negotiators and members of the IAE?
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why are you asking questions that have no bearing on the issue .. what does the US not giving nukes to Taiwan - have to do with the fact that US/France is responsible for the nuclear proliferation that did happen ...

    The claim that China is responsible for aiding Iran in getting to where it has gotten w/r to nukes is preposterous nonsense - US/France are responsible -

    be done with this silliness and get with reality.
     
  6. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How is America and France "responsible" for spreading nukes?
    America seeks to pressure Iran and Russia and China provide support - that's going to help
    stop nukes in the Middle East, isn't it? If Russia and China DO give Iran a Get Out Of Jail
    card then the West should nuclear arm those nations being bullied by Russia and China.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did you think it was China that opened up Pandora's box and let the nuclear secrets out of the bottle ? In the case of NK, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan - "the official story" is that a Pakistani National working at a French Nuclear Facility had access to the Nuclear Secrets. That is how Pakistan got the bomb - and he also shared the secrets with the other aforementioned nations.

    What didn't happen - was some Pakistani national working at Russia and Chinese Nuclear facilities having access to the Nuke secrets.
    Pakistan was now a client state of Russia or China at the time - such that they could have prevented development .. that would be the US.

    America was party to a deal that was - at least for the moment - preventing Iran from continuing down the enrichment path. America then backed out of the deal.

    This deal was not just with China/Russia - the EU Security council members were also party to the agreement we broke - and now Iran is closer to nukes. Hopefully China/Russia will condition some of its aid to Iran on maintaining the deal.
     
  8. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    you got prove on NK? NK have nuke is bad for china in term of stability in the region and their geo-political agenda, china want NK to be like china that is have economic reform and give up nuke. a strong economic NK is much better buffer zone for china than a nuke armed NK, which can lead to instability. if war break out between NK/SK, tens millions refugee gonna rush to china, dont think they want that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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  9. FivepointFive

    FivepointFive Banned

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    Wow.. You guys are really informed over there.. I couldn't follow #3 at all
     
  10. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    A deal between Iran and China shows that 'getting tough' doesn't solve the US's problems.

    Perhaps, perhaps not. But we know for sure that negotiating with them doesn't solve the issue.
     
  11. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    lets see we got deal with iran, maybe not the best, but it did prevent them from getting Nuke, and we have IAE to check on them constantly. its better than right now, in which they are start to make nuke again,Trump method doesn't work is it? just like NK, did trump able to get NK get rid of its nuke? now Iran is team up with China/Russia, and they gonna start selling them weapons soon. and dont forget hundreds billions $$$ deal china is working with iran now. so what did Trump achieve on Iran? nothing, he made it worst. same with NK.
     
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    At best Obama and Trump gave it a go but it was destined for failure. Common sense told me they were being played. You can't negotiate with these kinds of people. That is what I said and I haven't changed my mind.
     
  13. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    except we got IAE to check on them for nuke activitys, which mean the deal at least from nuke perspective worked. the alternative would be china/russia work with Iran, and Iran still got nuke.
     
  14. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you :)

    #3 is easy ...
    Until 2014 there was no real duty for anyone to spend a specific amount or percentaga of the GDP into military. There was only a task given to the new Eastern Europe members to spend more ... 2% of GDP ... to modernize their forces to NATO standard ... you know, most of them were not really modern equipped with soviet weapons from Warsav Pact times and here not even with the latest systems.
    At the NATO conference in Wales / UK it was decided that not only the Eastern European countries, but all NATO members from 2024 must invest a share of 2% of their annual GDP in defense ... I repeat: From 2024 it is mandatory!

    The following question therefore arises:
    Why the hell has Trump been calling for Germany to invest 2% of GDP immediately since he took office in 2017 (and also before that in the election chapter) ... if Germany and everyone else are only contractually obliged to do so from 2024?
    That is outrageous in itself ... but combined with the other lies about it like "it costs the US taxpayer money", it is really evil! Just because Donald Trump doesn't like it with 2024 doesn't mean that we have to submit to his will and his idiotic demands. Who does this bastard think he is?

    Conclusion:
    Trump withdraws 12,000 of the approximately 35,000 US soldiers in Germany to punish Germany for not submitting to his will.
    Angela Merkel & Co will never say it officially ... for reasons of state ... but in reality we shrug our shoulders and just laugh at Trump for his stupidity because he scores an own goal.
    And not just a few ... whether the majority or not ... are also wondering when the remaining 23,000 will finally leave, because they only cost us a lot of tax money, without being really useful or doing anything for us. On the contrary, we Germans enable the USA to operate forward operating bases for the many geostrategic and purely US interests! And this has at least nothing to do with NATO and the defense of Germany and Europe!
     
  15. FivepointFive

    FivepointFive Banned

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    Conclusion: Putin is pleased

    The 2% GDP on Germany is new to me
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  16. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! Trump is constantly digging trenches between the US and individual European allies, or generally against Europe when it comes to the EU ... and who is most happy about it is Putin!
    This Russia gate issue should perhaps be taken a closer look at, because never before has a US president done so many favors to the Russians who were rated as opponents as since Trump!

    You have to understand that with the 2% as followed ...
    Until recently, Trump always accused the Germans of failing to meet their financial obligations as a NATO member because they did not invest enough in their own defense, etc.
    The only financial obligation that exists is the one with the 2% of GDP ... and that is only mandatory from 2024 and not today!
    It is correct that last time Germany was only around 1.5% of GDP ... but in currency (Uuro, US Dollar) Germany has the second highest military budget in NATO after the USA!

    Otherwise there is only the common NATO budget ... e.g. the cost of the NATO headquarters in Brussels / Belgium and some other things ... which is around 2.3 billion Euros. So far, the USA has had the largest share with 22%, but also has privileges as a result, e.g. NATO CinC is always an American 4 star general.
    Germany is in second place with a 14.8% share ... and it has already been agreed (so there is already a deal here between trump and Germany) that the USA will reduce it to 15.9% from 2021 and Germany will also increase its share to the same 15.9%. The remaining 27 NATO members have to absorb the rest of the US reduction together ... although I wonder whether the US then still rightly has this privilege over the CinC ;-)
     
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  17. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Then go and tell or better make it law that all US companies have to retreat from China with their plants and fabrication lines and closing them ... for example Apple but also a huge number of others too.
    And then it will maybe cause a problem to sell high tech issues to China in general, isn't it?

    And be aware that at least better no supplier or sub-suppliers of these US companies does produce parts and items in China further or use / buy such things in China further.

    Not easy ... not to say will be impossible in my opinion.

    But the point here is Iran ... and so far everything was well and fine with a good deal with Iran to prevent that they build nuclear weapons. Fine until this jerk Trump entered White House and blabbers on one hand a bunch of impudent lies and also trys to combine it with others issues which were never part of the deal and this well reasoned. For example the Iranian missile program suddenly ... which was rated a big threat by ignoring that Iran has any right to do so, aside point that Saudi Arabia still has missiles to reach every corner of Iran in inventory (and also maybe nuclear weapons from Pakistan!!!) and also Israel has a buch of missiles too and for sure nuclear wepaons.

    The righties in the US are only interested in submitting Iran ... something that has not worked for 40 years and where the US has also no white shirt of innocence.

    Only the USA canceled the deal, nobody else and why is China ... which you have declared to be the new "Empire of Evil" ... not allowed to make deals with Iran? Because it doesn't suit the USA? Just heavy laughter at such US arrogance!
     
  18. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    That requires you to have faith in these international organizations. I have none personally. China and Russia won't bribe them with billions in cash.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  19. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    O ... distrust of everything that is not American?
    Apart from the fact that outside the USA there is very often the same distrust IF it is of American origin ...

    Once again we have the case that the USA only trusts all organizations in the world if they dance to the music of the USA! Every time it goes against the US or a result does not satisfy the US (at least an idiot like Trump as US President at the moment) ... then this organization itself, its activities or at least the results of its investigation are questioned and attacked!

    There are enough examples ... International Criminal Court, UN General Assembly and its decisions, WHO, UNICEF, IAEA ...
    All highly praised and declared great ... until there was something that was against the USA and / or a result that the USA does not like! Schwupps ... stereotypically the same accusations as always and now come back!
     
  20. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your typical anti-American response.
     
  21. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    O ... telling uncomfortable truth is for you again Anti-American?

    Have you also any serious counter points to that what I wrote or only this lousy and lame "Anti American" bla bla bla?
     
  22. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    My point was every bit as serious as yours. Telling the truth is uncomfortable for you?
     
  23. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    you do know IAE has alot american scientist in it lol, what you belief is Trump bs, like he said "it will be gone by april" lol
     
  24. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    You are putting words in my mouth. Ignored.
     
  25. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    lol you know its true. its well know fact IAE or WHO have alot american scientist in it. Scientist just like Dr.Fauci, who told fact not unscientific lies.
     

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