Can a Hardened Nuclear Missile Silo Be Disable With A conventional weapons strike?

Discussion in 'Nuclear, Chemical & Bio Weapons' started by Dayton3, Sep 16, 2017.

  1. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I figured your original posts on Chrome Dome was probably accurate, but what I was more interested in were the other airborne nuclear alert aircraft that you vaguely alluded to
     
  2. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    But would they launch their ICBMs in response to a conventional attack on those ICBMs?
     
  3. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    More than likely they would launch back.
     
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  4. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    That'll make a conventional war with China exciting, because I can't imagine the US Air Force conventionally bombing China without making their nuclear missiles the number one primary target.
     
  5. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    As far as I've read, most Chinese ICBMs cannot be quickly launched like American and most Russian ICBMs can.
     
  6. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But many of them are on mobile launcher which makes them harder to target. This is a challenge until you can get air supperiority and hunt for them.
     
  7. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    China is building fields of modern ICBM silos. Last I heard they have discovered three different fields of ICBMs, but every time I turn around analysts seem to find another one.

    Here are some articles from when we only knew about two of the fields of ICBM silos:
    https://fas.org/blogs/security/2021/07/china-is-building-a-second-nuclear-missile-silo-field/
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...istic-missile-silos-by-a-factor-of-ten-report

    This article mentions the third field of silos:
    https://fas.org/blogs/security/2021/11/a-closer-look-at-chinas-missile-silo-construction/
     
  8. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From your article: "The 250 new silos under construction are in addition to the force of approximately 100 road-mobile ICBM launchers that PLARF deploys at more than a dozen bases."

    Those are the really problematic one. There maybe, one day, a new system able to prevent launch of missiles but if you don't know where they are you can't take them out.
     
  9. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    If we end up in a shooting war with China, our unmanned bombers will likely spend quite a bit of time looking for mobile missiles to bomb.
     
  10. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your unmanned bomber won't make it there until you have air supperiority over all of China, and if you look at a map and the size of China, you don't have any chance of this happening.
     
  11. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Unmanned stealth bomber. Air superiority not required.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...livered-optionally-manned-and-nuclear-capable
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...gets-endorsement-from-biden-air-force-nominee

    And I think that taking out their ICBMs would be such a priority that we would be doing that before even trying to achieve air superiority.

    But I don't see why we would not achieve air superiority once our unmanned stealth bombers destroy most of China's air defense assets.
     
  12. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes you need superiority or they'll get intercepted. Stealth doesn't mean invisble or invulnerable.
    No fighter can operate that deep in enemy territory, especially one with sophisticated SAM system. SAM are cheap compared to fighters/strike aircraft and pilots takes years to train. And no, unmaned planes wont do either, the latency in communication will make them useless and so will the fact that China is on the other side of the globe. Don't count on your comm satelite either,you can kiss them goodbye 5 minutes after you declare war.
     
  13. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Stealth means pretty close to invisible and invulnerable. I don't anticipate many interceptions, if any at all.


    If necessary they can be manned stealth bombers.
     
  14. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Errrr, no it doesn't. It only diminish your radar signature. There are other way to target stealth airplane, especially for a tech advance enemy. At best it just means that their interceptors will have to get a bit closer to shoot you down or that they've to launch a few more missiles to get you.

    There's a reason why the USA only goes after third world armies with their stealth aircraft.
     
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  15. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    It diminishes it to the extent that the plane cannot be attacked, or even detected.


    Other ways of detecting stealth bombers are also obscured.


    The interceptors will have no idea where to even find the bomber.

    The missiles will not be able to lock on, and will probably not even know that the bomber is there.


    Yes, and it has nothing to do with any alleged vulnerability in stealth. It is because direct confrontation with a peer power would be a catastrophic war.

    But the fact that we try to avoid World War III does not mean we could not fight it if we were forced to do so.
     
  16. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, that's false and has been demonstrated so.

    No they're not. There are many way to detect stealth aircraft.

    Of course they will, there are only so many bases and approach those bombers can use.

    Of course those misssile will lock on since they don't strictly rely on radar to do their targetting now.

    You're avoiding WW3 because you know you can't win! Except fo a nuclear conflict, the USA doesn't have the manufacturing base and supply chain to sustain more than a few weeks in a serious war. The USA is in the same position that Germany was in 1941. You either try to defeat your enemy really fast, or said enemy will gradually grind you down through attrition. Your armed forces are professionals and takes a long time to train. Your enemy have a vast bassin of cheap conscript they'll gladly throw at you until you break down. This is why Russia won over Germany. This is why there's two Korea. This is why you lost in Vietnam. This is why you lost in Afghanistan.
     
  17. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. Stealth will allow our bombers to attack without being harmed themselves.


    That is incorrect. Stealth bombers obscure all means of detection.


    And stealth bombers obscure all of them.


    Stealth bombers, and the cruise missiles that they launch, can attack from any direction whatsoever.


    Stealth bombers obscure all means of targeting.


    That is incorrect. We avoid WWIII because it would be a catastrophe for everyone.


    Yes we do.


    Maybe if we tried a land invasion of China.

    No one in the US is planning a land invasion of China however.

    If war comes between the US and China, it will involve sweeping Chinese warships (and then commerce) from the oceans, and it will involve bombing Chinese land targets from the air.

    The most that our ground forces will do in such a war is confront Chinese forces on Taiwan and some of those little manmade islands in the South China Sea.


    We didn't lose either. Leftist politicians just pulled us out of both places for no good reason.
     
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  18. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Depends on the rocket, solid fuel quick launch but limited range, liquid fuel slower launch much more range.
     
  19. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    What "unmanned bombers"?
     
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  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Well, think about it for a bit.

    The only conventional attack would be by long range bombers, or an ICBM. Bombers would likely never penetrate deep enough to actually attack them, which leaves an ICBM.

    Now how could anybody identify is such is conventional or nuclear until it goes off? It is impossible to do that, and nobody puts conventional explosives into an ICBM. Therefore any attack by such would be treated as a nuclear weapon.
     
  21. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    You do know the U.S. only has 20 stealth bombers don't you?
     
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  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    I can, because targeting those would almost guarantee that the other side would panic and decide to launch them rather than just see them destroyed in place.

    That is part of why the entire concept of MAD works. They have them, you have them, neither one uses them. But take out some on one side, and that puts in their mind they will become an easy target, therefore making it more likely they will "use them or lose them".
     
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  23. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    That has not been true for decades.

    Until the early 2000s it was true, as their only ICBM used liquid fuel. And like the early US and USSR missiles had to be fueled prior to launch. But since then they have developed the DF-31, which uses solid fuel so that is no longer the case. However, they only have around 15 of them in service.
     
  24. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Does any known vehicle have to be "fueled prior to launch"?:frustrated:

    Otherwise how does it fly? Hyperdrive??
     
  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Hell, it is even easier as the claim is unmanned stealth bombers.

    Simply throw up massive amounts of EM jamming. If anybody thinks that unmanned bombers would get deep into China, I have some prime real estate for sale in Florida. And ocean front property in Arizona.
     
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