Define Evolution

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by YouLie, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    In your own words, please, using as much brevity as possible.
     
  2. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Change; from one state to another state.
     
  3. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that's simple!

    The evolution I believe in is pretty much summed up the same way. Adaptation of species to their changing environments, period.
     
  4. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    dont you also believe in some arbitrary limit to how much change can take place?
     
  5. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Yes, it may be called, survival in some cases.
     
  6. Flintc

    Flintc New Member

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    As Einstein said, everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler. Biological evolution isn't simply change. It is an adaptive feedback process, over generations, such that offspring differ from parents. Boiled down as simply as I can, evolution has three requirements:

    1) A constant source of variation
    2) Heritability of variation from one generation to the next
    3) Too many offspring for the resources available

    If you have these three requirements met, you get evolution.
     
  7. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    Change can only occur as much in biology as it does in everything else that influences biology. How much more or less Sun energy and information can be acquired or lost in biology?
     
  8. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Sorry I have no idea what you mean by this.

    maybe if I change the q.

    Do you think that there is some genetic limit or barrier that says an organism can only
    "evolve' within its "kind' such that there could be no possibility of a new species arising from a previous one?
     
  9. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Is this a trick question for the sole surviving species in the Homo genus?
     
  10. Flintc

    Flintc New Member

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    This question rests on the fact that there is no fixed definition of what a species is. Within a population, there's a great deal of variation, a kind of deep pool of potential. Speciation sometimes occurs because mutation produces some new variation, but mostly it occurs due to concentration of some variations within a subpopulation. For example, there might be a pool of variation of pheromones, but if one sort tends to concentrate, those individuals might only be interested in breeding with one another. Soon enough, breeding isolation allows new mutations to cause increasing divergence. But the trigger wasn't a new mutation, it was a stochastic distribution of some variation.

    A new species is always a member of the clade to which its parent belonged. No matter how wild the dog-breeder's art, the results will always be dogs. If eventually enough variation is isolated so that interbreeding is no longer successful (sterile offspring, for example), we might come up with a different NAME for this species, but it will still be a dog just as surely as humans are still apes, and apes are still mammals.
     
  11. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    We get asked about one species having descendants that are a completely different species.

    Sheesh.

    We are not completely different from fish.
     
  12. Flintc

    Flintc New Member

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    I guess the problem is binary thinking. We're really not talking about completely different/NOT completely different. We are talking about the degree of morphological and genetic divergence over time. Given enough divergence, a species can be quite different from a distant ancestor. Humans share a common ancestor with jellyfish and sponges.
     
  13. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    I've noticed that our fundamentalist friends tend to all be binary thinkers.
     
  14. Burzmali

    Burzmali Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I pretty much have the same definition as Flintc. I might turn it into a sentence by saying that evolution is change in allele frequency within a population due to mutation and selective pressure.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    and a cavalier king charles spaniel is also a wolf.

    just within in the canine world alone, and within astonishingly short time frames, all the information is there.
     
  16. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    You mean like mitochondrial Adam and Eve?

     
  17. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Genetic variation in response to environmental phenomena and mutation across multiple generations.
     
  18. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    "Information" is a subjective concept. Objectively DNA involves zero "information".
     
  19. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Why do you believe that? Simply because we haven't "decoded" it yet doesn't make it null.
     
  20. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The whole "adaptation exists but there can't be changes in kinds" argument makes no (*)(*)(*)(*)ing sense.

    Small changes add up to big changes over time.

    It would be like me saying that the "Theory of Long Distance Walking" says that if one walked long enough they could go from one area to another, like from New York to Los Angeles. Then someone comes along and says that, yeah sure, walking exists and someone can walk away from their area to another one, but they can't go beyond their general geographic area.

    Its an illogical arbitrary line.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's not a "code". It's a chemical reaction. Stop anthropomorphizing it.
     
  21. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I am not sure what you mean; simply learning the right "code" could enable transmutation from lead into gold. Even chemical reactions produce useful information even if we do not know exactly how or why it is accomplished.
     
  22. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    "information" implies an internal meaning. DNA is just a chemical compound that undergoes chemical reactions.
     
  23. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    information could just be "data".
     
  24. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    There's a reason why both words exist.
     
  25. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Gradual development. In my subject, we refer to stars as evolving, so confining the word to only refer to organic beings is too tight for me.
     

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