How many genders are there?

So much for the party of science.

 

I’m chinese, because in my mind, i feel i’m chinese. For now, i identify as a man but who knows, may change..

 

That reminds me of an old precept that, if I remember correctly, was from Plato: "A horse is called 'horse' because it is a horse"

The idea that the name of things is what makes them BE those things. In other words, that the name of things is part of "the nature" of those things. And, since "the nature" cannot change, that means that words cannot change their meaning. Well... we know that words can definitely change their meaning. They change to accommodate the need to explain reality.

So it appears that the argument against the scientific studies that demonstrate that we will need to revise the traditional concept of gender is that "male and female are called 'male' and 'female", because they ARE male or female" That, in science, will not suffice.

Yes, people are people. A person is a person so long as they adapt to our definition of "person". But their their gender is not what they are. It's just one of many characteristics. A chair is no longer a chair when the observations don't adapt to our definition of "chair". For example, when you can't sit on it (or whatever definition of chair you want to use... let's not split hairs). Likewise, a male or a female are not male of female when they don't correspond to our definitions of "male" or "female". And the papers I cited in the OP show so many variants that don't correspond, that those definitions no longer stand up under scientific scrutiny.

There is a continuum that goes from a short person to a tall person. It is "common sense" that this doesn't happen in respect to gender. Well... looks like there are many studies that question this concept (and none that confirm it). Even if the majority of people are at the extremes (male of female), there are reasons to believe that this does not completely explain everything that has been observed. And I'm not just referring to the sexual organs. Even though there are instances of intermediate points, they don't paint the whole picture. There are many other physical differences between what we understand as "male" and "female". Most notably in the brain. But not only is this a continuum, but one that can change under certain circumstances and even overlap. For example, there is an area of the brain (the name and details of this in one of the links I gave) that is very much related to our concept of "male" and "female". This area in a non-pregnant woman is more similar to a male than it is to that of a pregnant female. And in a gay man it's significantly more like that of a straight female than to a straight male.

So, bottom line: at this point science does not support the concept of male vs female as binary genders. There is still much research to be done, but everything seems to indicate that we will be discovering that there are more than two genders. The idea of two genders simply does not hold up under scrutiny.

Is a chair you can't sit on a "chair"? If a carpenter builds a chair with only two legs, is it really a chair? If a person with male organs is born with the physical brain characteristics of a female are they still a male, a female... or are they something else? You can believe anything you want. But this is not about belief. The fact is that science cannot support the binary choice. And more and more it is moving towards defining that "something else".

And if we know our history, we know that if science doesn't support it, it's a concept that's going to die. So people can cling to their beliefs if they want... I mean.... there are still people who believe the Earth is flat, that there is no Evolution, or that there was no Big Bang.... But all these are matters in which science has rendered a verdict. And the verdict that seals the demise of the two gender theory is very much on hand. Those who are not prepared will be seen in the near future the same way we perceive "flat-earthers" today.

 

This world has gone full on retard. Humanity is heading towards a hard reset.

 

It was believed to be flat. Some still believe it. I have no issue when it comes to ones personal beliefs. While I don't believe in god or that a man can be a woman, people can believe whatever they want up to the point of forcing their beliefs on others.

If an adult wants to change their anatomy and have the money to pay for it, enjoy. The moment they want me to pay for it or use their physical advantage to cheat in sporting events, they are crossing the line.

 

But it IS relevant to society whose concerns are more complex and dynamic than that of science, who are not concerned as you stated, which such things.

Well, the decision to classify 1 in 2000 as an anomaly, or a new norm (that has never been recognized since time began ) THAT is a cultural/political/societal one, NOT a scientific one.

Only the raw fact is 'science'.

There are two sexes, and the anomaly of 1 in 2000 of intersex. In the two sexes, psychologically speaking, in humans, there are shades of grey.

But, when it comes to genitals, there are, in the main, only two, male and female where Intersex is an anomaly. So, when we speak of human identity, we are talking about constructs of psychology. Psychology loves to portray itself as science, but there is a lot of art in this so-called 'science'. Lots of opinions, and the left influences psychology far more than the right does. I realize you are saying that 'science is not political' but far more psychologists are left of center in their politics than on the right. Yes, There IS an agenda, let us be frank. I'm not as male as some knuckle-dragging boatswain's mate in the Navy or some grunt in the Marines, but I'm every bit as male as they are. The very sentence reeks of 'artistic interpretation'. Do you see the difference?

Society does not have to go along with it, particularly since there is no benefit in doing so, in fact it will invite chaos, an unneeded chaos. The solar system example was necessary, though it caused chaos in the beginning.

Oh, science, in their incessant push, might get some to go along with it, but they've got a long ways to go.

I'll side with the electorate on the matter. But, let's also be frank, the right is going ot hammer the left with this issue. Is this what you want? I don't.

 

NO amount of body mutilation can change a man into a woman or a woman into a man. I don't know how many still believe the earth is flat but I know there are quite a few who believe a man can become a woman and vice versa by making appearance changes which is utter folly.

 

I agree. Surgery that turns a pole into a hole is only cosmetic. Personally, I identify as a dog. I felt this way ever since I was a puppy!

 

You are oversimplifying. Gender is not a 1 in 2000 anomaly.

It's way more than psychological. It involves the way the brain is configured, for example. Actual physical characteristics of the brain.

But it will. It has already started to. And it might take a short time or a long time. With ups and downs, a few steps back, and more steps forward. But science won't serve as an excuse to stop it from happening.

The right will always hammer the left. Because the left is for facts and science and the right is for science denialism, The left (by which we mean "progressives") is the ideology that has defended AGW, Evolution, CRT, ... heliocentrism (in its time)... everything that science teaches.

If the left capitulates on science, we stop being the left. But progressives have fought way more difficult battles than this one. So you can be sure the left will not capitulate.

 

Two-Legged Chairs : two-legged chair (trendhunter.com)

A chair is a chair. No matter how its designed. How it looks. Its still a chair.

 

Yes and no, and there are limits.

The fellow who really illuminates this is Bill Maher.

I'm all for doing the right thing, but when rightness is so far off the charts of sensibility and reason, where not being so right doesn't really matter, in the scheme of things, and where it helps republicans get elected, that's where I differ with my liberal brethren.

And, on this issue, it most certainly is helping republicans get elected.

I won't won't compromise on health care, that's a hill I'm willing to die on.

But, more than two sexes? Why?

Why on god's earth is this an important issue?

 

That is a FALLACY!

ONLY the UNINFORMED and MISINFORMED are claiming that there are "more than two sexes".

Gender is how the BRAIN is aligned WRT the sex that the individual KNOWS themselves to be as opposed to the sex that was ASSIGNED to them at BIRTH.

When I ORIGINALLY realized that I was trans I was FOCUSED on the FEMALE aspects of MYSELF. My strong MATERNAL instinct combined with an ABSENCE of the male drive for AMBITION and material success.

Given more time I have come to appreciate that it is CONSIDERABLY more NUANCED in my own instance. I am NOT in the MtF category of someone who was ASSIGNED Male at Birth while having a Female brain.

Instead I am much CLOSER to the MIDDLE of the Gender SPECTRUM. The Feminine aspect of my brain can EMPATHIZE at the same time that the Masculine aspect of my brain can ANALYZE.

I am BOTH male and female SIMULTANEOUSLY in my brain. I see BOTH sides of issues when there is a dispute between a man and a woman. I can appreciate why the man does NOT understand the woman and why the woman is frustrated that the man is INCAPABLE of understanding her position.

Being Trans in my experience means that my brain is NOT hardwired to be male OR female but rather it is wired to be BOTH male AND female.

That does NOT alter the PHYSICAL sex of my body but the HRT is altering it in a way that CONFORMS with my own UNDERSTANDING of who I am.

I am NOT alone in being in the MIDDLE of the Spectrum either. That is why the terms BIGENDER and GENDER FLUID exist and I self identify with them because that is WHO I AM.

Furthermore the Scientific Data that the OP has RESEARCHED for himself supports my gender self identification.

And the OP is 100% correct that Society is ADAPTING and ACCEPTING this latest KNOWLEDGE. The Gallup polling of Self Identification by Generation Demographics backs up this societal adaption. While a mere 2% of Boomers self identify as LBGTQ it rises to almost 16% of Gen Z.



The Gallup DATA corroborates the Science DATA.

 

I wasn't referring to the spectrum between hetero and gay, and I acknowledge there is a spectrum, but.....

I was referring to biological sex, male and female, for which the only intermediary is intersex, which is an anomaly at 1 in 2000. All LGBTs are male or female. I am a 'B' in that group, and a male.

My comment wasn't about you.

 

The THREAD TOPIC is about GENDERS!

My comment wasn't about YOU either!

 

Should be noted that CRT is NOT science. Its race based idiocy that promotes hate.

And seriously, look at you giving all the credit for all advancements (real and fake) to progressives. As if all scientists are progressives. What a load of bull hockey. Its a bit old (bush years) but....

LINK: Section 4: Scientists, Politics and Religion | Pew Research Center

 

We'll see whether or not this is just a trend or something else. We can't say for sure this is a trend or something permanent. (ONLY talking about the use of different gender usage in language)

But thanks for your input on this. I have been wondering what a transgender thinks about this idea of there not being strictly male or females. Particularly since they fight so hard to be acknowledged as the sex that they were not born as. Of course I understand that you hold extreme views so will look further abroad for the answer also. After all, I know of at least one transgender that acknowledged that if a pill were to be made that would allow their brain to conform with their body rather than forcing their body to conform with their brain then they would take the pill in a heartbeat.

 

Can I be "transgender" too? I hear it's all the rage in current "progressive" fashion, these days!

 

This sums it up folks....your pseudo "science" at work...

 

I hope that isn't a SELFIE!

 

Then don't respond to MY comment.

 

The question is not about policy. It has nothing to do with politics at all. It's a matter that will be resolved by science. Whatever science winds up finding, that's what it is. What we do with that knowledge is a different question. THAT will be a matter of policy. But that's a different topic. Right now, all we know is that science doesn't support the two gender binary model.

 

Off topic. But all I can say to anybody out there who is not sure what is and what isn't science is that the last person they should listen to is anybody from the side that has historically always gotten wrong facts that today are very much established. Such as those related to HIV, smoking, Global Warming, HQC, the Covid vaccines (and other vaccines).... and an endless list of facts in which we know the right adopted the wrong position....

 

Not sure what this has to do with the post that you responded to. Are you trying to say that CRT is fact based and science? Because you didn't once mention it. And while it might be a bit off topic...blame yourself for mentioning it. :shrug: You brought it up in your own thread. Not me.

 

Actually it does. You just insist that since there are different combinations of male and female in a body then that means that male and female is somehow different in those bodies and therefore not male and female.

 

Well, it's a paradigm shift.

But so what? How is having more than two sexes improving society?

Since time began we've seen two sexes. And, it continues to this day, we see all around us, two sexes. Rarely, but occasionally, we see someone who was born intersex. Usually, such a person has the luxury of choosing one or the other.

Even with trans persons, they choose one or the other.

So, this has worked well since time began, so how does it improve society by declaring there are going to be, say, 5 (or whatever the number is) sexes?

Oh, it's all about politics.

don't kid yourself. Science can ramble on about many sexes it wants. But, since time began we've seen two sexes, and intersex anomalies.

In his paper, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, the physicist Thomas S. Kuhn stated.
"How are paradigms created, and how do scientific revolutions take place? Inquiry begins with a random collection of "mere facts" (although, often, a body of beliefs is already implicit in the collection). During these early stages of inquiry, different researchers confronting the same phenomena describe and interpret them in different ways. In time, these descriptions and interpretations entirely disappear. A pre-paradigmatic school appears. Such a school often emphasises a special part of the collection of facts.

His paper would actually argue in favor of this new paradigm shift about sexes. But that isn't the point.

But, funny thing, he had the honesty to state one all important fact about 'scientists/researchers'. I want to call your attention to it:

"...different researchers confronting the same phenomena describe and interpret them in different ways."



Now you have far left woke psychologists trying to push the notion there are more than two sexes. But, it's all from a self identification viewpoint.

Well, if someone tells me they identify as a dog, and they are a human, that's not science. Oh, maybe in the sense of anthropology/culture, etc. Not in the sense of raw fact of biological sex. So what, we gotta treat him/her as a dog now?

Is that a stawman argument? I don't think so.....

How is it any different if someone tells me, while they were born a man, tell me they 'identify' as a woman?

What, just because a bunch of extremely woke liberal psychologists sympathize with this point of view?

Are you trying to make the argument that their own woke liberalness isn't influencing this view?

Now, with transpersons, I'll go halfway with them, if they are willing to go through that radical thing, the operation, if they are willing to go that far, that, to me, separates the sincerely 'inwardly female' males and those who just want to escape being gay, they want to be called 'female' but don't want to go through with the operation. Why? Because being gay comes with a certain amount of baggage (inflicted on them by hetero society, though it's improving )..

I know this first hand. I am bisexual. I've lived in and around the gay community most of my adult life. As a male, I can say on good authority that men lie about sex. Gay or straight. We lie. Do you not know this about your fellow species? Hell, they will lie to congress and God, himself, about sex. Not everyone, but many of us do, and many of us do it and we don't even know we are doing it. The male mind is cunning, oohh, so very cunning. You have no idea how cunning.

In my view, the healthy thing to do is to accept what you are. You are a male, or you are a female. If you are intersex, that is really the only time you get to choose BECAUSE you have male and female genitalia.

But, being bisexual comes with a lot of baggage, so I just choose to be hetero. It's a lot less hassle, and I can choose because I am both. Actually, I feel fortunate to have known both words, intimately. I can choose, but I am a male, and I'm not choosing to be anything other than what I am. That is the healthy thing to do, not live in some fantasy world about which I am not. No way in hell am I going to be trans, get the 'chop'. For me, that's mutilation and insanity. But, what do I know?

I think it's better to accept who I am, because I believe that is the healthy thing to do.

Now then, some 'trans females are truly female, inwardly. They are willing to go all the way, get the hormone therapy, grow breasts, lose facial hair, get the operation. It takes time, but for all of that effort, they are often very convincing, I can't tell. Congratulations to them! I support them, fully. But nothing short of that.

But, there is the other kind, the male who won't accept that he is a gay man, and, wouldn't it be wonderful to be straight? So, how to be straight?

Viola, become a woman. Thing is, they won't go through the complete transformation. And, when they dress in female clothes, they look and sound like a man in drag. Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Not for me, anyway. I mean, live and let live, I have no problem with men in drag, if that is their thing.

But, if they want me to call them 'woman'. then Either make the transformation, or be a gay man, cross dresser, etc. Nothing wrong with that. Just accept who you really are and go for it. **** or get off the pot, so to speack. But, if one has male genitals, you are a male, there is no way around that fact. Even if you get the 'chop' and get hormones, you are still a male technically, but, since they went through the radical steps, getting the operation, etc., I'll go along with it, so I'm willing to go that far with them.

I think that is fair.

And hiding the argument behind the curtain of 'science' isn't the all arbiting thing you are portraying it to be.

Are not these the same psychologists trying to get schools to do away with grades, because poor grades 'affect self esteem', and removing grades
gets rid of 'stress'. Hey, I got bad news for kids, if they want to avoid stress, commit suicide. That's a pretty harsh thing to say, but the best way to prepare for life is to face stress, head on. If you can't handle one tiger, handle two. That's my philosophy and I think it's a good one to deal with life.
Face the music. Confront reality. It's there whether you want it to be or not. Life is full off stress and challenges, and it is, in my opinion, child abuse to insulate a child from the harshness of life.

It's similar to growing a plant in a greenhouse, where the environment is cushy and ideal for the plant. As long as the plant stays in the greenhouse, it thrives. But take it out of the greenhouse ( as in living in real life ) the plant wilts. This is the same thing they are doing to children. Woke science is not good science, it's bullshit.

Yeah, you can call it science, well, I don't, and it ain't right.

It just isn't. Woke psychology is killing the left, and giving the right the ammunition to do it.

I vehemently protest