Interesting numbers on the news

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by logical1, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Anything which contains human DNA can be considered 'human'.
    As for what can be considered "a human",... that question is bit trickier. It really depends on how one defines what "a human" is.

    When it comes to the rights of the unborn though as it relates to abortion and legal protections, the real question is when during the course of a pregnancy do/should those rights and protections come into existence? Ought those rights be considered from the very moment that a human sperm cell enters a woman's body? From the point at which human sperm and human egg meet? When the paired cells embed themselves within the uterine wall? Or should they not be considered until such time that the fully developed being emerges from the uterus and breaths its first breath of air? And in picking any such point, what exactly is the justification or rationale?

    My personal view on this is that Pain Perception and or Mental Life/Consciousness should be considered as the gold standards for picking such points. i.e. That is to say that I believe that one among the following gestational cutoff points/ranges and justifications should be used when making such deterinations:

    -Thalamic Afferents (Week 20): Because its been theorized that connections between afferents may be capable of pain transmission
    -Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 23): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Thalamocortical Fibers
    -Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    -Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 23-29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    -Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 20-29): Because this is the period in which a fetus develops the structures necessary for pain perception
    -Mental Life (Week 29): Because fetal consciousness cannot and has not been observed to occur before this point

    Others however seem to really favor the cutoff of Viability (Week 24) as the standard instead... a very popular choice... which is fine by me, because when you get right down to it, that cutoff still lines up nicely within the ranges based off of Pain Perception and Mental Life/Consciousness.

    We actually had a Ranked Vote on this subject a few years ago and that ended up being the option that won out over the others (although technically, contraceptives was the overall winning option... Viability was simply the top cutoff point). Based on the results we were also able to put together this compromise proposal:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/pf-abortion-reform-compromise.550627/
    Would be interested in reading your thoughts on this.

    -Meta
     
  2. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Yet there are detectable brain waves as early as week ten. And at that point there are also a heartbeat identifiable finger prints, and the child's physical features are clear. Yet all of this is little more than an arbitrary standard of convenience. From the moment egg and sperm join the requisite chromosome are present and the DNA is identifiably human.
     
    ToddWB likes this.
  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I have NEVER heard anyone say a human fetus(ZEF) wasn't human...of course it is


    But it isn't A human as in legal person.

    It hasn't been born yet, it has NO rights.



    WHAT rights do you think it has???


    The right to use another's body to sustain it's own life?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.


    The right to harm someone else without their permission?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.
     
  4. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Agree to disagree.
     
  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    I have NEVER heard anyone say a human fetus(ZEF) wasn't human...of course it is


    But it isn't A human as in legal person.

    It hasn't been born yet, it has NO rights.



    WHAT rights do you think it has???


    The right to use another's body to sustain it's own life?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.


    The right to harm someone else without their permission?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.


    Why? Are those questions too INCONVENIENT ;) ;)


    I don't "agree" to anything.....except that you have no facts, no argument, no rebuttals, no answers , no point.


    Unbelievable that you think it's fine for one person to harm another without their consent and people can be forced to give body parts, liver, kidney, blood to others......
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  6. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Easy. PP is steeped in White Supremacy. Areyou in the habit of supporting and advocating such privilege?

    MARGARET SANGER SMILES: Planned Parenthood ‘steeped in white supremacy,’ employees, supporters charge.

    Planned Parenthood of racism, the nation’s largest killer of the unborn, may face a reckoning led by hundreds of employees and supporters who charge the racist organization with being “steeped in white supremacy.”

    A letter signed by more than 350 “current and former staffers” of Planned Parenthood of Greater New York, as well as about 800 donors, supporters and volunteers, declared that founder Margaret Sanger was “a racist, white woman” and that the organization suffers from “institutional racism.”
    [​IMG]

    “We know that Planned Parenthood has a history and a present steeped in white supremacy,” said the June 18 open letter from Save PPGNY.​

    The missive accomplished its primary goal: the ouster of Laura McQuade, who stepped down June 23 as president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of Greater New York. Critics are watching to see whether Planned Parenthood can withstand the scrutiny of the “cancel culture” and Black Lives Matter.

    Planned Parenthood staffers criticizing Margaret Sanger as racist is certainly unprecedented and completely justified,” said Hayden Ludwig, an investigative researcher who has written extensively on Sanger.​

    “This letter might be a sign that the left is close to jettisoning the socialist, eugenics-supporting, white supremacist Sanger,” Mr. Ludwig said. “That can’t come soon enough.”
    Planned Parenthood's birth control pioneer supported eugenics, an early 20th-century social engineering movement that sought to improve humanity through sterilization and selective genetic breeding.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  7. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    The unreconstructed racist and Socialist, Sanger launched the Negro Project in 1939 aimed at “helping Negroes to control their birthrate” while advocating for a federal “population bureau” to police reproduction. She worked with the Ku Klux Klan women’s auxiliary.

    Save PPGNY letter rightly declared that “Planned Parenthood was founded by a racist, white woman. That is a part of history that cannot be changed.”

    Clinics are located disproportionately in minority neighborhoods — Black women received 36% of abortions in 2014 even though they make up 13% of the female population.

    “Anyone familiar with Planned Parenthood’s history, founded by Margaret Sanger who recommended selective breeding of ‘the finest flowers’ to prevent ‘human weeds’ and pushed a ‘Negro Project,’ knows that the racist roots of the nation’s No. 1 abortion vendor taints their entire organization,” said Kristi Hamrick, spokeswoman for Students for Life of America.
    The “complaints of employees of Planned Parenthood that such policies continue are unsurprising but still tragic.”

    The abortion rate for Black women is five times higher than for White women.

    "Margaret Sanger was a racist eugenicist and no amount of leftist revisionism will change that. Sadly, those same employees refuse to see that the same systemic racism that birthed Planned Parenthood, led the abortion giant to become the leading killer of black lives today.”
    In their letter, the PPGNY staffers described a workplace culture of “racism and anti-Blackness.” They said they had complained for years about “systemic racism, pay inequity, and a lack of upward mobility for Black staff,” but nothing was addressed.

    “White and non-Black employees are still given more pay and more advancement opportunities than their Black colleagues,” said a Save PPGNY post on equity. “Blanket statements are used to overshadow our grievances, while only exacerbating the problem.”

    “Black staff are further disheartened when our white and non-Black colleagues use their privilege to amplify our concerns, and find they, too, are challenged and manipulated into silence.”
    Protesters have attacked sculptures of Christopher Columbus, Ulysses S. Grant, Thomas Jefferson, Spanish priest Junipero Serra and Confederate generals, yet a bust of the racist socialist Sanger sits in the National Portrait Gallery.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Oh the usual regurgitated hogwash about some dead woman named Sanger who was TOTALLY AGAINST abortion ..

    She , and THIS righties really hate, wanted to give black women as much access to birth control as white women had. :eekeyes:
    Equality with whites !!!
    Righties HATE that idea
    , that's why they go after Sanger, who, BTW, doesn't run PP , she's dead...
     
  9. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    All the same rights as a new born babe, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    I have NEVER heard anyone say a human fetus(ZEF) wasn't human...of course it is


    But it isn't A human as in legal person.

    It hasn't been born yet, it has NO rights.



    WHAT rights do you think it has???


    The right to use another's body to sustain it's own life?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.


    The right to harm someone else without their permission?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.




    Rights come with restrictions....that's pretty basic :roll:


    Why can't you address the facts:

    WHAT rights do you think it has???


    The right to use another's body to sustain it's own life?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.


    The right to harm someone else without their permission?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.
     
  11. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    The woman volunteered for that service the minute she willingly agreed to have sex. And harm from child birth is a rarity these days not much if any more common than harm from a legal abortion.
     
  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    .

    Agreeing to one act (having sex) is NOT agreeing to any other act(becoming pregnant)
    That's the law.

    Ignorance may be bliss but it contains no facts.

    Here are the facts:

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    And many of those can also result from a abortion and most of them are as I said uncommon. And the worst ones decidedly rare. And temporary is temporary. Life itself is temporary.
     
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    .

    Agreeing to one act (having sex) is NOT agreeing to any other act(becoming pregnant)
    That's the law.



    Ignorance may be bliss but it contains no facts.

    Here are the facts:

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.




    NO, they do not.


    .


    NO, they are not.


    So you don't care about the women who suffer because some things are rare ?



    And permanent is permanent ...women suffer pain and physical damage from pregnancy and you canNOT prove otherwise.


    Gestation, growing a fetus, is harmful to women....IF the fetus had rights it would still have no right to harm another or live off someone else.

    But in all these discussions I have noticed that righties denigrate what women go through , what their own mothers went through, to birth a baby.....the misogyny is striking..



    Agreeing to one act (having sex) is NOT agreeing to any other act(becoming pregnant)
    That's the law
    .
     
  15. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    So if I shoot myself in the head I'm not responsible for my own death?
     
    Doofenshmirtz likes this.
  16. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    .

    Agreeing to one act (having sex) is NOT agreeing to any other act(becoming pregnant)
    That's the law.



    Ignorance may be bliss but it contains no facts.

    Here are the facts:

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.






    NO, they do not.


    .


    NO, they are not.




    So you don't care about the women who suffer because some things are rare ?





    And permanent is permanent ...women suffer pain and physical damage from pregnancy and you canNOT prove otherwise.


    Gestation, growing a fetus, is harmful to women....IF the fetus had rights it would still have no right to harm another or live off someone else.

    But in all these discussions I have noticed that righties denigrate what women go through , what their own mothers went through, to birth a baby.....the misogyny is striking..



    Agreeing to one act (having sex) is NOT agreeing to any other act(becoming pregnant)
    That's the law
    .



    :) What a great dodge of all the facts in the post of mine you quoted...completely irrelevant and illogical !


    Hey, let's see your list of things women who have abortions having the same effects of women who gestate...:)

    THAT ought to be interesting...


    How about you PROVE gestation causes women NO harm ????

    You know, actually back up your claims ? :)


    OR , wait for it....addressing what's in my posts that you quote !!! Wow, wouldn't that be different !!
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  17. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Bold #1 Anything which contains human DNA can be considered 'human'.".. so spit is considered "human" .... did you just compare an individual human with spit?
    I think garyd has a good response to your contentions. Every word counts when making an arguement, omitting some for the sake of "winning" is not actually winning, it's merely lying to the weak minded.

     
  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Rights come with restrictions....that's pretty basic :roll:



    WHAT rights do you think a ZEF should have ???


    The right to use another's body to sustain it's own life?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT.


    The right to harm someone else without their permission?

    Well NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT RIGHT
     
  19. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How far should they have to drive?
     
  20. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Ninety percent that is not permanent. And death and and infertility can result from abortions as well. So can psychological issues.
    And the point of my previous post was that every action you take has consequences. If you are not willing to live with those consequences you shouldn't engage in those and punishing a third person for those consequences is immoral.
     
    ToddWB likes this.
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    .

    Agreeing to one act (having sex) is NOT agreeing to any other act(becoming pregnant)
    That's the law.



    Ignorance may be bliss but it contains no facts.

    Here are the facts:

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.






    NO, they do not.


    .


    NO, they are not.




    So you don't care about the women who suffer because some things are rare ?





    And permanent is permanent ...women suffer pain and physical damage from pregnancy and you canNOT prove otherwise.


    Gestation, growing a fetus, is harmful to women....IF the fetus had rights it would still have no right to harm another or live off someone else.

    But in all these discussions I have noticed that righties denigrate what women go through , what their own mothers went through, to birth a baby.....the misogyny is striking..



    Agreeing to one act (having sex) is NOT agreeing to any other act(becoming pregnant)
    That's the law
    .





    :) What a great dodge of all the facts in the post of mine you quoted...completely irrelevant and illogical !


    Hey, let's see your list of things women who have abortions having the same effects of women who gestate...:)

    THAT ought to be interesting...


    How about you PROVE gestation causes women NO harm ????

    You know, actually back up your claims ? :)


    OR , wait for it....addressing what's in my posts that you quote !!! Wow, wouldn't THAT be different !





    That does NOT matter. ANY permanent damage is permanent damage.



    Show your stats....but ahead of that I'll add abortion does NOT harm women on the level pregnancy does....do you REALLY think abortion can cause all that is listed under "Effects Of Pregnancy" ?? SHOW PROOF.




    So can psychological issues do what???




    So if you buy a car and it turns out to be a lemon do you keep it forever??? That doesn't sound too bright.
    Most people rectify their mistakes...they don't wallow in them...


    Third person??? WTF !!...there is only ONE person involved in a pregnancy....


    Three???


    AND here is a SHOCKER for ya:

    YOUR "morals" don't rule the earth....:)
     
  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    LOL....so quiet.....
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    PP does no such thing - you need to better vet your sources of information.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes - Masturbation is a terrible thing - All those human lives being terminated for the sake of a little pleasure.

    Every sperm is sacred - a sacred human life.
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Well now they switched, according to the latest flamebait thread the Democrats are now killing white people...Can Democrats wipe out the white race?
     

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