China's economy grows 6.5% in Q4 as country rebounds from coronavirus

Wasn't my argument. You'll have to ask the person I quoted who suggested she followed him.

 

What's your point?

In the USA, death due to COVID among health care workers has been exceptionally high.

We totally failed to provide adequate PPE. So, when retired doctors and nurses came back to hospitals to help, they accounted for a noticeable number of deaths - dying in service to others with full knowledge that they were at special risk.

To me, this is one of the very special crimes of Trump. Trump HAD the entire power of our manufacturing at his disposal through the defense production act and he just let our health care workers die. He even allowed FEMA to interdict delivers of PPE to hospitals, leaving the hospitals without the materials they had PURCHASED and totally unaware that they were being screwed with their pants on.

 

Then you should have opposed that characterization, as it was blatantly false.

 

YUP! So what's your conclusion? TRUMPS FAULT and XI and WHO are great? How much spread you calculate happened in the 20+ days the WHO and CHINER suppressed the fact that human to human spread was present in December 2019? What possible way was there to contain the virus after allowing international travel from CHINER, Italy and and the entire planet being seeded for "Who really knows how long" if the CHINERS and the WHO were hiding "WE NOW KNOW" critical information then?

Again, the entire planet was set a blaze because CHINER failed to contain the pathogen, plain and simple! No leader or country succeeded in containing the pathogen.. So what makes you think Trump had a snow balls chance in hell of controlling the spread. Clearly the LEFT when faced with blaming someone put Trump on a holier then thou pedestal that no other leader can live up to either..

 

This is well known to be one of Trump's LIES.

You really need to try to not believe every last piece of garbage that comes out of Trump's mouth.

Pelosi suggested people shop/eat in Chinatown, because businesses there were being killed by the totally unjustified (and Trump stoked) fear of Americans of Chinese descent at the time.

 

This was a novel virus that appeared to be a strain of flu at the beginning.

It IS known that local officials in China prevented information from getting out as early as it should have. And, once it got to the level of Xi, the world got full information.

However, there is NO justification for being critical of WHO.

The REAL problem in the USA came AFTER that.

We had NO travel ban with China or other East Asian countries. We had many thousands of people flying back and forth. We did NO contact tracing nor did we take other action for those who came here and then showed COVID symptoms.

Even up to a few HOURS ago, we had a president who fought AGAINST taking action on COVID.

You can NOT blame China for that.

 

No YOU can't seem to blame CHINER for withholding critical spread data for 20+ days, for whatever reason

 

We import 30% of our PPE. China is responsible for the production of 38% of global PPE

Overnight the global supply dropped. US producers of PPE didn't have the capacity to make up the difference overnight. How would Trump taking over production have produced a better outcome? Do you think PPE producers were thinking they should sit this one out unless someone with a flag lapel pin told them otherwise?

I believe the supplies that you're talking about were ventilators, which science has recently figured out kill you quicker. So...maybe "following the science" on that one might have been a bad idea.

 

??
No. I have NEVER denied that. I mention it repeatedly as you can see in my posts.

The point is that the delay can NOT be seen as a significant issue.

Please remember that in ALL the states of the USA (except OR) have had the majority of COVID infections coming from strains that arrived through EUROPE!!

You can't blame China for that. WE are the ones who control our borders. WE are the ones that could have been restricting travel, requiring isolation periods, taking temperatures, etc. And, when tests became available WE are the ones who could have been requiring tests for travel.

You can't blame China for having an executive branch total unwilling to combat this pandemic.

 

On two separate occasions Trump turned down the refurbishing of mask machines that could create 1 million n95 masks PER DAY.

He did it once when he first took office. It was part of the move by Obama to be prepared for the next pandemic, given our national experience with viral disease during his administration.

Then, he turned down another offer to refurbish a similar machine in January - a machine that again could create a million n95 masks per day.

We are STILL short of PPE in our hospitals. We have NEVER recovered from that shortage. Trump left it to capitalism, and capitalism doesn't make moves like that when it is known that the market for n95 masks is only experiencing a spike.

In fact, Biden says he will be using the defense production act to focus on meeting our PPE needs - something that has been desperately needed for a YEAR now.

We lost the commercial mask business to other countries. But, that does NOT mean that we somehow forgot how to make masks. We just couldn't beat overseas prices.

 

It went world wide and was unstoppable because "The point is that the delay can NOT be seen as a significant issue." that point is total nonsense! If that were the case then WHAT would the point of locking people down have? You aren't making much sense considering what we know about speed of spread and the type of extreme measures we have done to avoid human to human contact

 

How does that differ from what Par10 posted?

 

He didn't turn down an offer to refurbish a machine. The request from Prestige Ameritech was for the government to fund the refitment of four retired production lines. They couldn't come to an agreement on how much it would cost. Prestige "leaked" the fact that they hadn't reached an agreement and characterized it as a "rebuff" FEMA took over mask acquisition in March, and Prestige America won a contract for 9.7 million in April. Take a look at what Wiki says about this deal...

Kick ya walking in the door and kick ya walking out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_Ameritech

Oh...and they never fired up those production lines. Either demand must not be that high, or those lines are not easily refit. Fixed automation is not something you simply swap a few parts out of. You often have to tear the whole thing apart and re-engineer it from the ground up.

 

Travel restrictions plus careful monioring of travelers are the only defense we had aginst COVID coming here.

We didn't do that.

Failing to do that a few days earlier is STILL a failure to do that. The viruses don't care which DAY we fail.

We have NOT consistently taken even the most fundametal measures, so I don't have a clue what you meant by THAT comment.

 

Well I am guessing Biden will follow scientists' advice on applicable issues so by extension she will follow the advice of those scientists...unless Biden lies about it like Trump.

That is how it works right? The executive branch has the experts. Those experts give there assesement and the President provides that info to Congress who then adopts the strategy best for their state based on those findings.

Might be a simplistic view but that is how I see it.

 

You added some of the details and I'm perfectly fine with that.

The basic facts are still exactly as identified. I didn't suggest that the machines were new as that's an irrelevant detail.

Trump refused to use the defense production act and refused to pay to have the machines put in workign order (I don't care if you call it a "line" - pretty much ALL manufacturing implements some sort of line).

Instead, Trump left it to capitalism, which assessed that there wasn't a financial gain to be had.

So, our healthcare workers went without - and more died as a result.

Also, FEMA was a PROBLEM, not a help. They actually interdicted delivery of shipments of masks that hospitals had paid for.

Then, they turned the masks over to commercial enterprises that RESOLD the masks for a profit. Hospitals that had ordered PPE didn't find out what happened until their shipments didn't arrive - leaving them in hugely WORSE shape than they would have been - in fact, in worse shape that if they had simply been notified that their shipments were being stolen by the government.

 

No, that's not how it is supposed to work at all.

The CDC is there for everyone, including Congress. The CDC budget ad objectives are controlled by congress.

The fact that it is in the executive branch only means that the executive branch has oversight. But there was NEVER an intent that the executive branch can block the flow of information - or that the executive branch can insert false data (such as Trump did with CDC).

 

The economy is in tatters because they wanted trump to look bad.

 

I'm glad that everything good will be trumps doing and everything bad will be bidens doing from this point forward, just like the last 4 years...

 

This makes NO sense at all.

Governors and legislators do not purposefully do harm to their constituents in order to make someone "look bad". Think about how stupid that move would be.

Let's remember that meat packing plants were ordered to stay open. The result was major COVID infestation and so the plants closed.

Are you really going to argue that was BETTER than restricting plant operation to start with - requiring slowdows and savety precautions for workers that Trump ordered NOT to take place?

The bottom line is that pandemic slows the economy.

Also, remember that the CDC created a method for opening our economy. They published their plan on Whitehouse.gov. That plan called for significant testing and contact tracing. The plan was created in conjunction with other executive branch organizations and reviewed by industry.

Trump REFUSED.

 

That is a good point. Thank you.

Agreed. That was part of the problem I guess. Trump was desperate to downplay the virus to save the economy and subsequently his election hopes, so he villianized agencies like the CDC, while at the same time lying to the American people about the severity of the virus.

 

I corrected you because your statement was glib. Prestige wasn't asking for the government to help them get a machine going. They were asking to rebuild 4 production lines. I imagine you have something like this: https://www.directindustry.com/industrial-manufacturer/surgical-mask-production-line-252769.html in your head, and if that's truly the case, you would think Prestige could have easily bought 4 new machines after being awarded their 9 million dollar contract. They didn't bother with their old equipment so clearly the equipment was not easily serviceable.

On the contrary, Trump tried to flex on 3m to prevent them from exporting masks and they rightfully countered by citing the dire global need for PPE now that China had stopped exports. Is it better for nurses in Canada to die?

But we don't blame China for stopping exports. We blame Trump for not suddenly becoming a mask baron?

I'm confused. Do you want government to control distribution or not?

 

I certainly did not mean to be "glib". The details are not important to the point, so paragraph after paragraph of the details is just distraction.

This is true, but totally irrelevant.

NO. It is better for the USA to be prepared (and interested) in saving OUR nurses without impacting others.

I have never ONCE hinted that we should be grabbing masks from nations who need them. And, I resent your dispicable charge against me.

Absolutely.

Trump had TWO different opportunities for the USA to have it's own emergency mask capability, and he punted BOTH of them. One was in January as discussed above. The other was when Trump took office, canceling our preparedness effort that included a call for mask production that was answered by at least one offer - another case of refurbishing production lines that had been abandoned due to economic forces.

???
I want government to care about 400,000 people dying in America.

And, if that takes paying for US based n85 mask production during the pandemic, that I ABSOLUTELY want our government to be ALL OVER that.

Capitalism is NOT going to answer this kind of emergency in the way we need. A corporation can not borrow money to build/fix a mask production line based on possible payback that is only going to last for the duration of the pandemic.

Capitalsim can't do that. GOVERNMENT can do that. When government punts on that, then it doesn't get done.

 

You blame China because Trump blamed china. Just "follow the leader" Yep, it came out of China, everyone knew and has know it. Yet, we were the only one that denied it was real for 2 months, down playing it, saying it would JUST go away. If fact, it wasn't WE that said it, Trump said it, and his followers followed, like the pied piper. All his underlings Conway, and the bunch just mocked Trumps very words. That is how he leads, which isnt a real leader.

For as great of a healthcare system we have, great $$$, and what was a great nation we should have surely seen it was real, acted like an Adult, and followed thru. All he did was lie, then as he lost control of it he blamed others, "fauci was the problem" and ultimately it was China's fault. Do you blame the school when a kid catches a cold, or comes home with Lice ? No, you act to protect yourself and family, heal right away. Trump is still blaming others for all his failures. He did in the early 70s NY. I seen it first hand. Sad to watch new gullibles fall into the glaze of lies.

 

Stealing mask deliveries as they are being shipped to hospitals that bought them and then giving them to companies who sell those masks in any way they want is NOT control of distribution.

It's theft.

FEMA has added absolutely nothing.

All along I've been saying that our government should have been using its weight to cause more masks to be created - such as by refurbishing those production lines.

Then YOU accuse me of stealing masks from Canadian nurses and objecting when FEMA steals masks from hospitals. No, I don't want the US to be stealing masks from ANYONE.