Polygamy (not sure where to put this)

Discussion in 'Civil Rights' started by modernpaladin, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Easy enough. The state is regulating who can obtain the legal benefits of being in a legal marriage. And it has, and still does, engage in these regulations beyond what rights and freedoms should allow. Thus both interracial and same sex marriage have been brought into legality since their exclusion. And since legal marriage has no requirement of sex nor children, it is highly likely that even incest marriage will be brought into the mix. Partly because many current laws go beyond blood relations where no birth defects are possible, or rather have no increase in possibility. For example, depending upon the state, Greg and Marsha Brady would not be allowed to marry, even though they are not blood siblings in any manner. Because of the lack of legal requirement for sex or children in a legal marriage, it is more constitutional to prohibit blood related couple from breeding than banning them from sex or legal marriage.

    With all that said, regulating the number of people within a legal marriage is a far cry from whom may marry who. The only possible argument would be a religious one, but ultimately there is nothing that requires the country to legally recognize marriage. Only that if it does, it has to be allowed to all consenting adults.

    In reality, the government can't, constitutionally, stop polygamy. And a recent case in Utah showed that. The government can only bring to bear a charge of bigamy if there is a person who holds multiple marriage certificates/licenses, usually from different states, but not always. However, they cannot bring that charge if the multiple legal statuses don't exist. Utah, however, started playing with the idea that if it used its common law marriage laws to force that legal status on polygamist families, there would then exist one or more people with multiple legal status of marriage. One polygamist family took the state to court over that. The courts initially ruled that the state could not force such a status, especially with the intent of them being illegal through no actions or intent on their part. Now later, a higher court overturned the case, but not because the lower Court ruled incorrectly. It was over turned because the family didn't have the right to take the state to court since the state never actually charged them. The family's proper course was to try to get the law changes so that the state could not do such to them. Only if the state charged them could they get a court ruling that the law was unconstitutional.
     
  2. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    And....? Married or not, both parents are required to provide support for their children. And if both parents are cohabitating, then the state is not going to make either pay child support because both are already supporting the child. So again, I ask what about polygamy would make this not so?
     
  3. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    It's not the plural marriages that are the basis of their raids and arrests. It is the abuses that many in that specific community are committing. Otherwise, they would be coming after the rest of us polys.
     
  4. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    If the father decides NOT to support his offspring, his support of his offspring is vested in the child. Same thing with a mother.

    Marriage is a contract between two consenting adults. You would have to change the laws to have a legally contracted marriage of multiples.
     
  5. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    I think you need break this down a bit more. If the father is living with the mother and contributing to the household, he is providing for the support of his children. The lack of a marriage certificate does nothing to change that. How would the presence of additional spouses change that? This is before we look at the fact that legal marriage does not require children, nor does providing support for any children you have require marriage, legal or otherwise.

    I made this point earlier. It's one of the main reasons the poly community is not making any real efforts, as a whole, in getting polygamy made legal.
     
  6. Robert Urbanek

    Robert Urbanek Active Member

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    I will acknowledge my mistake in the second link.
     
  7. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    It isn't an issue unless you decide not to support your offspring because the State doesn't want to do that.
     
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    As is often the case, your reply has zero to do with my comment.
     
  9. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Muslims can marry multiple wives in the US.. What country were you talking about?
     
  10. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Actually being married to more than one person is usually a felony. No "abuses" required.
     
  11. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Margot, you get so much factually incorrect that I won't even bother to ask you to source that; simply nod my head and say, "bless your heart,"
     
  12. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    And for good reason...
    ...as there is no such case.
    If compass needles routinely pointed in different directions at different times for different people, what the hell good would they be?
    Did I say that made it intellectually bankrupt? No, your idea of it is intellectually bankrupt because you think it's subjective.
    There's this thing called the tenth amendment. Maybe you've heard of it.
     
  13. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    I should have corrected my typo before the time ran out.
     
  14. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Which does say a lot for you. My complements, sir.

    Now as to your first link. Do you have anything that can counter the correlation/causation fallacy I gave to it? As noted this article specifically deals with a community that tends to be isolated, and even isolated groups where only monogamy is practiced will suffer the same problem as well.
     
  15. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    You originally said:
    So I am still not sure where your connection with polygamy is in all this. Whether you had a child in a monogamous marriage or a polygamist marriage, if you decide to leave the child, the state will come after you for child support. Whether you are married to one spouse legally, or more than one legally (assuming it is allowed), what difference would that make to.your responsibility to your offspring?
     
  16. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Not legally. Unless you can show me a law that states otherwise. At best, a polygynous man who already has 2+ wives can keep them than as legal spouses when moving to this country, assuming it was a legal marriage in his originating state.

    Edited: your post noting your error is noted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  17. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    I suspect this comes from a fairly narrow set of religious subcultures here in the states that have practiced polygamy, namely the Morman church and some Muslims and insofar as our national response came over a century ago, when women had far fewer options to escape or report abuse , I have my doubts about any conclusions drawn about the impact of polygamy on either women or children from history. This is an era of cell phones, the internet, the pill, modern transportation, and a far more aggressive police, law enforcement response to physical, emotional, or economic abuse. Nobody has convinced me to rely on anecdotal evidence from the early part of the 20th century.

    While I recognize the practical complication in family law, propate, and tax law, I think should be heading towards finding some way to reconcile them with polygamy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  18. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    Muslims are also eligible to petition the government to change the laws in of the country where they reside, just like everybody else.
     
  19. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    My understanding is that in places like Utah they do go after people just on the basis of plural marriage.
     
  20. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    Logically, the same reasoning that was used to grant equal protection for interracial and same sex marriages should also apply to polygamous and incestuous marriages (assuming they are between consenting adults).
     
  21. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    That may be their personal reason, but legally they would be in shaky ground if there were no additional marriage certificates in play. It's the reason why they can't come after my spouses and I. There is a certificate between my one wife and I, and another between my husband and other wife. No one person is on two or more, thus they can't claim bigamy with any legal basis. Cohabitation is not illegal. Sex between unmarried individuals is not illegal.
     
  22. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Incestous to be sure, especially since, by law, such prohibitions also include those legally related, but not by blood, are also often included, such as by adoption or marriage (step whatever).

    Poly, not so much, as that is based upon number and not anything else. It actually is a different creature, legally speaking, from marriage restrictions based upon an individual's traits.
     
  23. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    As a poly, I agree with this, but the legal battle for it will not and cannot be on the same basis as interracial, same sex and even incestous.
     
  24. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Even if the standard is that there must be a compelling state interest to discriminate ( and the courts may not find those interested in poly marriage represent a suspect class at all) the state's interest will be defined very differently in each of these matters, than its interest in denying same sex licenses. As I kept telling anyone who will actually listen ( not many, I assure you), if there is a court challenge based on either due process or equal protection , I won't take a formal stance on familial marriage or poly until I see a version of some of these state's briefs so I know how they define their interest in the first place. If I haven't even seen either side of the legal case write what they believe down for some kind of courtroom in some sort of a legal format , how can I know which side is stronger ? Its impossible to take a legal stance.

    If it is a public policy legislative case, they still need to prove that it represents poor public policy to allow people to marry a relative or a right to marry or marry more than one. Then I want to see research that is not drawn from some anecdotes about babies with three hands and one chambered hearts , or studies done in the 1950 among Mormon women living out it the hinterlands without internet or cell phone access.

    The real problem opponents of same sex marriage had, was their state compelling interest was crap, and they had no evidence with which to win a public policy debate outside some sentiments based on modern religious animus. I don't assume either is true here, but I do put the burden on the proponents of banning these alternative marriages based on competent consent, to give me some basis in Modern American culture to oppose these alternate options.

    The state's interest in being able to create viable methods to divide property in divorce, protect spousal economic rights, and find both probate and tax laws solutions are the building blocks of a case to oppose poly marriage, but I am not sure I am sold that there are not solutions given an court induced incentive to look for them. Nobody is trying to find solutions, when they think they already have a convenient one that meets constitutional muster.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  25. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I await your court brief.
     

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