Why libertarianism isn't conservatism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by aCultureWarrior, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    25,855
    Likes Received:
    5,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We differ on this point. And that's fine. For my part, sin is an artificial concept created by men to promote social control. IE, if an individual spends her life trying to avoid what others call sin, she spends her life in acquiescence to the demands of someone else... like someone she's never even met.

    I fail to see how the defense of life, liberty, and property is selfish or destructive.

    Again, we differ on this point. None of these broad groups of people harm you or other consenting adults by their mere existence.

    Funny thing is I would have actually said that if that's what I meant!

    You are free to worship or not worship any of the thousands of deities created by mankind, and for any reason you see fit. Ethically, you are bound to recognize your fellow consenting adult's right to do the same.
     
    Josh77 and TedintheShed like this.
  2. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    25,855
    Likes Received:
    5,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    None of those people are actually libertarians, for starters.
     
  3. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    An atheist's HATRED of God has to come from somewhere. If it isn't God's Word as seen in Holy Scripture, where does it come from?

    Good ole Murray Rothbard. I call him a baby killer because he wrote in an article that parents have a right to starve their handicapped baby to death.
    Children and Rights | Mises Institute

    Some pretty sick leaders you have there Ted. Walter Block, who replaced Rothbard as "Mr. Libertarian" when Rothbard's expiration date came due, wrote that a father has a right to sell his 4 year old son ("who is not an adult") to a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association for food if they were starving. Evidently beating the pervert and taking some food wasn't an option in Block's mind.
    Microsoft Word - RP26.DOC (reasonpapers.com)
     
  4. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The Libertarian Party supports libertarian philosophy, much of what liberals believe in (i.e. "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!").
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  5. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    One of us is right and one of us is wrong. If you think being addicted to drugs, living with HIV/AIDS, selling your body for sex, etc. etc. etc. is "freedom", then you have a very disturbing definition of that word, which of course is why you identify as a libertarian.

    I ask libertarians this question frequently and rarely if ever get an answer:

    "What happened in your life that made you HATE your fellow man so much that you want to destroy him?"



    Sin is right vs wrong. From a libertarians perspective, as long as there is consent used, there is no wrong.

    Besides being extremely harmful to society, they harm themselves. That's one of the major differences between Judeo-Christian doctrine and libertarianism:
    Libertarians don't love their neighbor as they'd love themselves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  6. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Uh huh. Since they're not libertarian but wrote the Libertarian Party Platform and have been given accolades by libertarians for being leaders in the libertarian movement, (other than from you), where did they go wrong in the LP Platform when describing what libertarianism is?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  7. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2021
    Messages:
    13,528
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It is now! 8)
     
  8. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Many libertarians crossed Party lines to vote for rainbow flag waver Donald Trump, as he embraces many of the things that libertarians embrace.* Numerous libertarian leaders also endorsed Trump's Presidency: Loony Lew Rockwell and Walter "NAMBLA" Block to name two.

    *Homosexuality, recreational drug use, etc.
     
  9. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,301
    Likes Received:
    1,983
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As I said, your god doesn't exist so it is impossible for me to hate a non-entity. It's like saying I hate the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot.

    The Bible has some great fiction in them (especially when the language is modernized).
    There is some pretty depraved stuff in there. I had two uncle's and a cousin who were pastors. Christians never have the moral high ground though, even though they think they so. We used to discuss the stories. Some of it read like 50 Shades of Gray and others like Mother Goose.

    Either way, I don't believe in fiction.


    I've not read the Block paper, but I will when I get the chance. I have read the Rothbard paper and am very familiar with it (do you think you're the first to link it to me?), and you need to reread it because that's not what he says.

    For the record, there is nothing immoral about homosexuality, prostitution, taking drugs or making and/or watching porn. All things being equal these acts are victimless. It a puritan belief that went the way of slavers being righteous.
     
  10. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,301
    Likes Received:
    1,983
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Reminder: Jesus supported slavery. He even healed a slave once...so the slave could get back to work for his master.
     
  11. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I doubt that you have any posts ranting and raving about the Loc Ness Monster or Big Foot, but then they didn't write a doctrine that goes against your beliefs did they?

    It goes against libertarian doctrine that's for sure. Don't cha just hate it when it condemns things that you libertarians embrace like homosexuality, abortion, pornography, prostitution and recreational drug use, saying that those things are slavery, but through Jesus Christ you can be free from the bondage of sin?

    I bet that you're still fuming over the number God did on your boyz at Sodom and Gomorrah aren't you?

    So believing in a doctrine that denounces moral depravity, which libertarianism is, isn't taking "moral high ground"?

    Like baby killer Rothbard's article, Block is very clear on the supposed "right" that a father has to sell his 4 year old son "who is not an adult", to a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association for food. Regarding Rothbard: When I read what he wrote, where was I confused by his meaning?

    "But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die.2 The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive.3 (Again, whether or not a parent has a moral rather than a legally enforceable obligation to keep his child alive is a completely separate question.) This rule allows us to solve such vexing questions as: should a parent have the right to allow a deformed baby to die (e.g., by not feeding it)?4 The answer is of course yes, following a fortiori from the larger right to allow any baby, whether deformed or not, to die."
    Children and Rights | Mises Institute


    There's a special place in Hell for barbarians like Murray Rothbard.

    So is libertarianism basing immoral behavior on if there are victims, or if consent isn't used, or both? Either way, there are plenty of victims when people engage in depraved acts, including the people themselves that partake in those depraved acts.
    B.A.R. Obituaries (glbthistory.org)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  12. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    When I want to take theology lessons from a God hater, I'll let you know. BTW, shouldn't you be taking a break and denouncing the Loc Ness Monster or Big Foot?
     
  13. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,301
    Likes Received:
    1,983
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Oh my! No need to get your panties in a bunch or are you that unfamiliar with the teachings of Jesus that you didn't know he supported slavery?

    If it's any consolation, like most scholars I agree that a historical Jesus existed. He was a great philosopher but he was the son of a carpenter and not some amorphous diety derived from men's imagination to as a functionary of governence.

    And denouncing? Why should I need to denounce a superstitioun? Something that does not exist doesn't need to be declared evil or wrong. It just... isn't.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,710
    Likes Received:
    13,466
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't think most folks know what the above definition of libertarian means ... in the parts meaningful - and the other stuff is more platitude than policy - Utilitarianism = Evil being the important note.

    You are right that libertarianism is not conservatism - but it is alot closer to Conservatism than Conservatism is - and you hit the nail on the head with the Religious Right taking over the party .. which has not been for the better - these Christians who know little about Christ - an anathema to his ministry they are.
     
  15. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    25,855
    Likes Received:
    5,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Fallacy, argumentum ad hominem: I am not the topic of this thread. A factual rebuttal would better support your argument.

    Fallacy, straw man. Not preventing a person by force of law from making their own poor choices =/= destroying that person.

    Here's a question for you: Why do you think you have the imprimatur to protect me from myself?

    You are welcome to that belief. I don not agree, but I will not presume to make your decisions for you as you will do to me and my fellows.

    From a rational, objective perspective, of course. Anything else is authoritarianism -- the root of all evil.

    They do not harm you -- they offend you. You have no right to not be offended. If they harm themselves, that's none of your business.

    Correction: It is the sole distinction between libertarianism and authoritarianism.

    Straw man fallacy.
     
    TedintheShed likes this.
  16. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    25,855
    Likes Received:
    5,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Great way to avoid AIDS: Do not have sex with an HIV+ person.
     
  17. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    That's why libertarians explain it quite well in the Libertarian Party Platform. Is there something that they've written that you don't understand or don't believe espouses true libertarian doctrine?

    Uhhhhh, I said that libertarianism and conservatism (conserving Judeo-Christian doctrine, culture and laws) are polar opposites.

    Uhhhhh, where did I say that? I have said that those that claim to be Christian have sold out God for their 30 pieces of silver in their support of rainbow flag waver and all around moral degenerate Donald Trump, but that's as close to me saying that the "Religious Right has taken over the party" .
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  18. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    (In the pretend world of libertarians, sexual perversion would be disease free).

    In any event, thanks for not disputing that there are victims when people embrace libertarian doctrine (i.e. "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!").

    Oh btw, can we both agree that Murray Rothbard was a real moral degenerate?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  19. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    That's news to me God-hater, but I do know that He has a millstone ready for you.

    “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
    Matthew 18:6:

    In order for it to be a "consolation" for me, I would have first had to been disappointed with your HATRED of God. I feel sorry for you, as I know what brought about that HATRED (believe me, you're not the first God-hater I've dealt with).

    Let's just say that God's Word as seen in Holy Scripture, doesn't sit well with you libertarians.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  20. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    25,855
    Likes Received:
    5,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are not a victim when you willingly engage in a behavior.

    I suspect we will not see eye to eye on this topic. I wish you a pleasant evening.
     
    TedintheShed likes this.
  21. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    It appears that I left this last line out when I responded earlier to BTTR's post.


    I'm not sure why you believe that only adults are capable of consenting, as many homosexual activists believe that children as 9 years old are mature enough to make the decision to engage in sex acts with adults.

    [​IMG]

    That being said: Here's a short list of things that I should embrace if I were a 'consensual moralist":

    *Murder: gang warfare and duels, as both parties gave their "consent".
    *Incest: heterosexual or homosexual, it's still sex with a close family member, but done "consensually".
    *Bestiality (homosexual activist Frank Kameny said that he "didn't have a problem with humans having sex with animals as long as the animal doesn't mind, and it rarely does")
    *Necrophiia: Bruce's lover wrote in his will that Bruce could have his way with him after his untimely death from HIV/AIDS (be sure to wear a condom Bruce).
    *Pornography, including hardcore porn like snuff films (the person that is to be "snuffed out" made a contractual agreement that a certain amount of money will go to his or her survivors after being snuffed out in a porn movie).
    *Prostitution (libertarian's just consider it another "contractual agreement", never mind that it's full of violence and ruins lives).
    *Any recreational drug use (remember it's the person using those drugs body and according to libertarian doctrine, they can put whatever into it that they want).
    *Homosexuality/pedophilia/pederasty

    There's more, but hopefully you get the picture.
     
  22. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Take it up with the dictionary:

    noun
    a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency:
    Victim Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

    Judeo-Christian doctrine teaches that people are victims of their own foolish actions, hence the need to guide them with righteous laws and teachings (Christianity, a home with a loving mother and father).. Libertarians on the other hand believe that "With freedom, there will be misery, disease and death".

    One of is right and one of us is wrong. Prove me wrong.
     
  23. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,301
    Likes Received:
    1,983
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here is someone who actually hates all religion. Unlike me, he is a militant anti all religion. But, here is a few of your precious passages from the Bible that is unabashedly pro-slavery.

    So yeah, you need a Bible lesson...from an atheist.

    https://fb.watch/8apK0PoqFb/

    Also, to me it's obvious you don't understand that many libertarians were religionists. Some libertarian stances even originated from men like St. Thomas Aquinas and Adam Smith. I don't expect you to know this though because your knowledge of libertarianism is...shoddy.

    That said, since you purposefully distort other people's view points, at this time I see no reason to further a conversation with you. If you cease doing this, I may re-engage but at this point as I said before you are just try to elicit a reaction. That's not a positive conversation, that's trolling.

    Have a good day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
    Talon likes this.
  24. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I feel sorry for pagan religions, as Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven.
    John 4:16.

    Or maybe you should read the Bible for it's true meaning instead of throwing darts at it and cherry picking out of context verses.

    Exodus 21:16. (psssst, don't confuse indentured servitude and prisoners of war with man stealing).

    I deal with 'gay' so-called "Christians" frequently (they're #3 on the 3 tenets of atheism as you might recall).

    Maybe you could share some quotes from the above two men regarding their support of homosexuality, pornography, prostitution and recreational drug use. I've never seen in their writings where they embrace moral depravity, but it appears that you have.

    Poor thing, has big ole meanie aCultureWarrior been too tough on PF's libertarians?

    When you proudly embrace the truth it's not a good day, it's a great day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  25. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    76,435
    Likes Received:
    51,248
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think that most Constitutionalists are conserving American Constitutional Liberal Democracy. Libertarians are traditional Liberals who quit using the term after Progressives took it over. Most thinking people understand that the last thing Progressives are is Liberal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
    Talon and TedintheShed like this.

Share This Page