Why libertarianism isn't conservatism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by aCultureWarrior, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Actually many believe that Russell Kirk was the father of the modern day conservative movement (the Founding Fathers were)
    I believe that you were having a conversation passing off Kirk and Chesterson as libertarians. If so, then make your case for Chesterson, as I showed that Kirk was against libertarianism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [/QUOTE]

    What a joke of a post... back up your claims quoting Romans 13 .. perhaps you are taking from a different Bible than the one I read .. and who said I was Libertarian .. no need to start making things up.

    and you have het to give the 2 commands from Jesus you claim the Religious right has adopted. .

    And what part of " this is a discussion about the teachings of Jesus .. not the teachings of Paul. and as usual - we have another one who wants to run to Pauline scipture - everytime the name of Jesus is mentioned .. anything but Mark Luke .. running running running .. away from the Truth .. the light .. the way.

    Paul did not become a christian until years after the death of Jesus - was not a hearer of Christ - and we have almost nothing in his writings about Jesus ..

    but do tell me how you figure Romans 13 fits in .. quoting from the text to support what you claim is written there.
     
  3. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Laws and a culture that embraces life, not death. Libertarian embraces a culture of death, not life.

    (It was only a matter of time before the misused word "theocracy" came up). Define theocracy. Based in it's true definition it would involve having a state church/religion.

    Laws have to have some moral basis. Libertarianism bases theirs on man's (allowing abortion, homosexuality, pornography, recreational drug use and prostitution to be legal or decriminalized), God's laws are based on love of His creation.

    Where does the supposed "right" to starve to death one's handicapped baby (as libertarian icon Murray Rothbard stated), or engage in acts of sodomy come from? Not God, nor the Founding Fathers, only secular humanist man. "Without God, anything is permissible."
     
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  4. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    If you're not a libertarian (actually, Giftedone is one of those "I am NOT a libertarian!" libertarians) then what are you doing debating me in a thread denouncing libertarianism?

    That being said: libertarians are disgusting aren't they?
     
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  5. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Cite.

    It's time to put an end to that nonsense.
     
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  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't need to be a "Libertarian" to defend or denounce libertarianism .. never that memo you got ? Define yourself by labels if you wish - I choose otherwise.

    Now what were those 2 greatest commands you were going to tell me about - Jesus - not Paul - Focus. and for bonus marks - tell me how these teachings relate to the founding principle.
     
  7. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    I guess you boyz need to be a little more clear then. We're in a thread whose title says that libertarianism is not conservativism. You brought up two historical names, which way did Chesterson and Kirk lean: libertarianism or conservatism?


    When Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence that man's rights come from God, and 50+ other Founding Fathers signed that document, that kinda sorta gave it away that they embraced Judeo-Christian doctrine.

    Do you think this is some sort of debate on ideology and that ideology isn't put into practice through laws/legislation? Of course legislating morality (or in the case of libertarians, legislating immoral laws) has everything to do with this thread.


    .

    Judeo-Christian doctrine. I thought it was clear from the Opening Post.

    Did the above just think up where rights come from or did they use some foundation for their beliefs?
     
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  8. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    As mentioned in my last post, you boyz were talking about Chesterson and Kirk in a thread that deals with conservativism v libertarianism. Which do you believe Chesterson and Kirk embraced?
     
  9. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You're confusing a verb with a noun. Liberals want to "conserve the environment", does that make them conservatives on the environment?

    n. (in a political context) favoring free enterprise, private ownership, and socially traditional ideas.

    I have voted libertarian a few times. Mainly when I knew the Republican, conservative, was going to beat the Democrat liberal and did so to help them get easier ballot access, based on number of votes received previous election cycle. But going down your list on which side of the political spectrum will you find the candidates that agree the MOST? Liberal or Conservative? Democrat or Republican? There are definately times when I cannot waste my vote to see the Liberal candidate win. The Libertarians just can't field on a national level and even at the highest state levels a viable and quite frankly recently candidates who don't go over the deep end on some of the policies into some never never land. For me that's foreign policy. I think they need to start at the grassroots local offices and work their way up through the long haul with serious candidates who can put libertarian polices actually in place, sell them to the marketplace of voters, but quite frankly don't see a time where there will be 3 parties. We're not a parliamentary system.
     
  10. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    If you've denounced libertarianism, I must have missed it. How about you just accept that you're a "I am NOT a libertarian! libertarian"?

    So now that we've established that Jesus' Apostles shared His teachings...

    Loving God (and hence His institutions) with all of your heart, mind and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself goes against libertarian doctrine and is the core to Judeo-Christian doctrine. The culture and laws (principles) of the Founding Fathers reflected Jesus' two greatest commandments.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  11. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Conserving God's creation (in this case not harming the environment past repair) is biblical based. So if liberals want to call themselves conservative environmentalists, they should at least give God credit for the concept.

    My condolences, but admitting that you have a problem is the first step on the road to recovery.
     
  12. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Spare me..............................oh well.
     
  13. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Make the case for libertarianism. Oh wait, no one can defend moral depravity, so they have to talk about anything else but libertarianism.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    By labeling others - who you have no clue about - as stated above - and you did miss it - you pigeon-hole yourself ... but finally .. after 4 posts you gave the answer .. and the correct one.

    the first one "Love God" does not help us with policy - it is connected but there is no perscription on how to live life.

    The second command however does - known as "The Golden Rule" ... James called it The Royal Law. Taught to Jesus by Rabbi Hillel while just a young warthog .. but of course Jesus already knew it.. he does however quote his mentor Matt 7:12.

    Rabbi Hillel - when asked to sum up the Talmud stated .. Don't do to others what you hate - The rest is all commentary .. now Go and Learn.

    Jesus - same thing .. Do unto others what you would have them do to you - "This Rule sums up the Law and the Prophets"

    Put it in bold because think it means HeyZeus wanted us to pay attention. He restates this rule a number of times in his most famous sermon on the mount - one where he tells you what the will of the Father is - and how to get through the pearly gates.. Judge not - Take log out of own eye - Let ye without sin cast first rock

    Not sure why you say libertarians are against this rule - could be - all other parties are ..in particular the religious right .. Trying to force religious beliefs on others through physical violence "Law"

    If you don't want others forcing their religious beliefs on you though law - then don't do it to others ... very simple .. nothing complicated.
     
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  15. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Why are you so ashamed to identify with the libertarian movement? Sure, it's selfish, destructive and a perverse movement...

    I added (and His institutions). Marriage/the family, Church, civil government, those are the 3 institutions ordained by God for the governance of man. When those 3 are weak or destroyed, so is society.
    BTW, if you actually read the Bible you'd know that it's a "prescription on how to live life", and a God-fearing civil government along with a God-fearing culture reflects that biblical doctrine.

    That's simple: how can you love God and your neighbor when you support legislation and a culture that goes against God's Word and is destructive to your neighbor? Libertarian ideology and legislation is just that.

    It's very clear in the Libertarian Party Platform why libertarians are against Jesus' 2nd greatest commandment:

    In their own words:

    "As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others.

    We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

    Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power."
    Platform | Libertarian Party (lp.org)

    Abortion, homosexuality, pornography, prostitution, recreational drug use: how can someone love their neighbor as they love themselves when they support such things?

    Laws are going to reflect someone's worldview, currently it's the libertarian worldview of "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!". Hence 60+ ,million unborn babies being murdered in the womb in a 48 year period, sexual perversion and immorality running rampant, and recreational drug use out of control.

    Boy, you libertarians really know how to screw up a country don't you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  16. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Libertarianism is radically liberal. The modern "liberal" is more conservative and highly illiberal.
     
  17. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not as disgusting as war-mongeting, state-worshiping Christian hypocrites
     
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  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Identify what with the lib movement and what is perverse .. you give no support for your claims- so nothing really to respond to.

    Belief in freedom is not belief in freedom "only for things you agree with" - everyone believes that - belief in freedom is belief in freedom for things you disagree with... The Bible does not condemn any of the above cept homosexuality - and Jesus does not condemn any of the things on your list. YHWH was a raging abortionist.


    Not talking about "All Law" but ones which violate essential liberty - as stated previously - you don't understand Jesus - nor the founding principles - and so you have been led down a dark path - now holding beliefs that are an anathema to the teachings of Jesus.

    If you don't want people forcing their religious or personal beliefs on you though physical violence - w/r to essential liberty - don't do the same to others.

    Sorry mate - you are a massive violator of the Golden Rule -- and so are the religious right .. libertarians - from what you posted - desire to uphold that rule - not sure about the rest of their platform. ..
     
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  19. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No one has the right to violently control another person, even if you are exercising "Christian" hatred of some undesirable.
     
  20. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jefferson also rewrote the Bible. You would have burned him at the stake for blasphemy.
     
  21. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Would you say the same about the right to violently control people, ie. political authority? If faith is the source of natural rights, then so is the belief in the the authority of government to monopolize justice.
     
  22. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    OK your reading comprehension has gone from bad to worse. You have not made a single accurate comment on any of my posts in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
  23. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, you need to sharpen your reading comprehension skills and stop putting words in people's mouths and propping up straw men. The topic you raised is an interesting one and deserves an honest appraisal and discussion.

    Yes, I can read the thread title, and I didn't bring up Chesterson and Kirk, did I?

    I addressed Kirk's list, which does a good job of articulating most, if not all, of the things that conservatism and conservatives are about, imo, while acknowledging the differences between conservatives on a host of different issues, be they ideological/philosophical, religious, political and/or practical. Conservatives are not some monolith, even though some ignorant and narrow-minded people imagine that they are.

    It's interesting you bring up Jefferson because 1) he was a deist, and 2) he didn't come up with the ideas that (1) all men are created equal, that they are (2) endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, among them (3) Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You should already know this. The first idea can be traced back to Jesus, the second to natural rights theorists of the Middle Ages and the third to Locke, Hutcheson and others within the English and Scottish Enlightenments.

    For the record, I never disputed the fact that most of the Founders ardently embraced Judeo-Christian doctrine, what I question was whether or not all of them did, and that question is also dependent on who we consider the Founding Fathers.

    I never claimed that ideology isn't put into practice through legislation and a host of other things including our personal lives, but that wasn't pertinent to my point. Furthermore, I don't think libertarians are interested in legislating morality - that's something social conservatives and LW "progressives" are interested in doing.

    While you're entitled to your opinion, I don't think "Judeo-Christian doctrine" is the singular source of conservatism and I think most conservatives would agree with me on that. While I have already acknowledged the contributions of Judeo-Christian philosophy, traditions and law to conservatism, I think it's plain that they are not the one singular source. Conservatism and conservatives are about much more than that, imo, and think what you will of Kirk (again I'm not an expert on the man and his individual beliefs) but I think his list, which I have read, illustrates those many attributes.

    Foundations, plural.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
  24. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    They abhorred democracy but set up a framework for how the democracy should be conducted. Think that through.

    Hence the machinations of a republic as opposed to having policy determined by popular vote.
     
  25. aCultureWarrior

    aCultureWarrior Active Member

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    Aside from Mayor Pete Buttiegieg, you won't find many openly liberal people that want to legalize all recreational drugs like libertarians do. Libertarian hearthtrob Ron Paul even voted against criminalizing virtual child pornography, something most democrats were for.
    House Refines Virtual Porn Ban | WIRED
     

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