2020 Election: Live Coverage

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Egoboy, Nov 3, 2020.

  1. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    With an economic philosophy like that one ( :above: ) you'd have fit right in with the Politburo of the Soviet Union's Communist Party....

    This country, however, (the United States) was founded and developed on the idea of free, independent citizens working toward their own private, preferred goals and 'making it' or 'breaking it' ON THEIR OWN.

    Sincerely, the only country on Earth that I know of where even a hybrid/modified form of Socialism has ever worked well, and does work fairly well today, is GERMANY. But even Germany, and the rest of the EU (which is a corrupt, economic CRATER), is totally dependent on 'imaginary-money' handouts from the European Central Bank (ECB) in much the same way that we in the U. S. have become economically-perverted so that we are totally dependent on 'imaginary-money' handouts from the Federal Reserve System (the 'Fed')....
     
  2. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, thanks. :D

    I know they've got Black Bears and Bobcats up where EgoBoy went hiking in West Virginia. Maybe some Lynx but the chance of running across a Lion would be highly unlikely to say the least. There have been a few unconfirmed sightings, but the only known concentration of Lions east of the Mississippi is down in Florida.

    Here in my neck of the woods in Virginia we see a lot of Black Bears, but this is Copperhead Central and those vipers are the animal that is most likely to put you in the hospital or kill one of your pets.
     
  3. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We went to Whitetop, which is near Mt. Rogers, and you can get a spectacular view from up there (5520'). You can drive almost all the way to the summit and then pitch camp not far from your car which makes it a real cheesy trip, but not having to lug a cooler fool of food, beer and ice a long distance has its advantages. :D

    I pulled these pics off Yahoo Images to give you an idea of the view. This is from the road looking Southwest at sunset:

    WHITETOP.jpg

    And this is the view looking South:

    WT2.jpg

    You can see as far as the conditions and your eyes can carry you, which on a clear day would be into North Carolina and Tennessee.

    So, how was your trip to DSW? I presume the weather cooperated...
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
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  4. glitch

    glitch Well-Known Member

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    Just what we need, another wing of the Dem party.
     
  5. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes. It's great. The new wing believes in "equity".

    Now white Republicans will not be the only ones accused of racism and sexism. The New Dem Wing is expanding accusations of racism and sexism to the Old Dem Wing too!

    Buy into apologetic Critical Race Theory or die a political death! This is going to be a fun couple of years of purging....before millions of sane Old Dem Liberal Centrists move to the Republican Party.

    We're putting Dems in power right when their party is at peak crazy!


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
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  6. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nice day, but it's a LONG drive (3 hours each way) for a 4.5 hour hike...

    Technically, we weren't at DS... it's another wilderness area south of that... Roaring Plains West

    https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/mnf/recreation/recarea/?recid=12371

    Trail itself was very well maintained and minimal elevation changes, but the forest road (Forest Road 70) to get there was the worst POC I've ever driven on... big rocks, washouts, DEEP puddles... never again. Took us 28 minutes to go about 2.5 miles.. then repeat on the way out...

    Heading home, we passed a few ambulances and rescue vehicles blocking the way still on the plateau... seems somebody had a heart problem during their hike. UGH..

    Stick to the Sods.. easier to get to and trails just as good, although if you want solitude, we didn't see another person on the hike either way...
     
  7. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I replied to crank to indicate I'm not obsessed by money; she seems to think my requirement for government-guaranteed universal above-poverty participation somehow offends HER monetary concerns.

    I don't actually envision a non-money economy, because the amount of data required would be astronomical; but more importantly, would remove the useful element of competition and incentive that drives innovation.

    But there are alternatives to the present neoliberal mess funded by private banksters which sees inequality soaring to levels which will undermine social stability...as noted by Biden today, with his appeal for "fairness".

    One way to achieve an economy that works for all (leaving aside politics) is "socialism with Chinese characteristics" which if it progresses in the next 2 decades as successfully as it has in the last 2 decades, will produce an economy double the size of the US, and also achieve the eradication of all poverty.

    Another way is to authorize government, via its reserve bank (the Fed in the US) to issue and spend its own currency into the economy, alongside money creation in the private sector, as required to fully and sustainably utilize all available resources including labour (see MMT).

    Yes, and therein lies the seeds of its own destruction..... when those "breaking it" outnumber those "making it", and fairness is pitted against freedom.
    Both are necessary, for stable governance which is acceptable by all.
     
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  8. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Ten years ago, I would have disagreed with you vehemently, but the more I look at both Germany and China, the more I'm re-thinking the overall understanding of what's really developing in the world. Much of what happens in China is hidden to us in 'the West', but Germany is a country I have come to understand rather well....

    My interest isn't fueled by some new, wholly-uncharacteristic 'egalitarian' impulse in thinking, but rather, a cold, logical analysis of how our workplaces and even work ITSELF is changing in the 21st-century. The careers of many people (far more than I would have imagined possible ten years ago) is dramatically, and perhaps forever changed by a combination of computers, artificial intelligence, the "internet of things", robotics, highly-sophisticated, efficient delivery systems, and stunning changes in the "customer-base" throughout the developed-world -- in which the customer does more and more of the work by participating directly in the sales process HIMSELF ("self-help" methodologies).

    One thing that hasn't changed during my long life is that employers are always seeking ways to make workers "do more with less", and to get as many people OFF the payroll as possible -- because cost-of-labor is always the greatest recurring cost in any business.

    And there's the paradox, gentlemen -- if more and more people are unable to compete successfully in an unpredictably elusive work-world, and make the money needed to fuel the consumer-oriented economy, how do corporations (and their client-governments) survive? Are we to become a society like that envisioned by Orwell in "1984"...?

    Back on topic... our choices for the presidency were, in reality, a man who pushed and shoved an economic methodology that consisted of little more than 'stock markets über alles'! The apparent winner, though, is a man who promises to push more and more government handout welfare programs of a dozen different kinds. My last question, then, is: how does either approach solve the growing numbers of economic problems that boil-up in country like ours -- and how does the approach of either economic 'philosophy' compete with that we've seen develop in China in the past twenty years...?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  9. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Good post. You are looking forward rather than backwards, beyond the obsolete 'capitalism good, socialism bad' narrative.

    For my part, MMT offers the most viable way forward for western democracies, to avoid the civil war which was required in China to decide the system that serves the needs of both the public and private sectors.
     
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  10. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Truth? I really don't know 'squat' about 'MMT' (Modern Monetary Theory). A lot of other folks may not know anything about it, either, so, here's a starting point for those of us who have been unfamiliar with MMT: https://www.investopedia.com/modern-monetary-theory-mmt-4588060

    "Modern Monetary Theory or Modern Money Theory is a heterodox macroeconomic theory that describes currency as a public monopoly and unemployment as evidence that a currency monopolist is overly restricting the supply of the financial assets needed to pay taxes and satisfy savings desires." -- Wikipedia . I know... "clear as mud", right? But, back in the late '80's, a lot of computer software we take for granted today was equally clear, and yet we learned, and adapted....

    [​IMG]
     
  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    No, it's very simple. Unemployment is a political choice not an economic necessity, as orthodox neoliberal economists would have us believe.

    Here is the PF thread on MMT.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/mmt-overcoming-the-political-divide.569365/

    In short, government spending is restricted by available resources and the nation's productive capacity, not by money supply.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  12. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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  13. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  14. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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    Biden can bring one if he wants.
     
  15. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He's president elect. Why would he need to make stuff up?

    It will be good to have an adult in the WH again.
     
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  16. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Therein lies the rub, Cy!

    Without paying LIVING WAGES with BENEFITS the workforce is REDUCED to the level of SERFS who can barely eke out enough to feed and clothe themselves and their families.

    Henry Ford understood this paradox and INCREASED the WAGES that he paid so that HIS employees could AFFORD to buy his products which was a Win-Win. In addition it cost him LESS in TRAINING since he had far lower TURNOVER of staff.

    There are sound reasons FOR pay living wages with benefits. That outdated concept called LOYALTY is one of them. Another is a higher QUALITY workforce that provides IMPROVED products and/or services thereby INCREASING sales and customer brand loyalty.

    I never understood why the beancounters who were always OBSESSED with the bottom line NEVER grasped these concepts. Probably BEYOND their abilities IMO.

    We need to strike a BALANCE between the GREED that results in abject POVERTY and the OVERREACH of too much regulation.

    Ultimately we need to put OUR government back to working FOR We the People instead of the Wall Street Casino Banksters. That means erecting a WALL of SEPARATION between our elected representatives and the private sector. With modern technology we can have bodycams on all of our representatives and ALL meetings MUST be recorded and available to the public for scrutiny with the only exception being national security issues. This applies to phone calls, emails, Zoom, etc, etc.

    ANYONE, either from the private sector or our representatives meeting WITHOUT it being recorded will be in VIOLATION of the Law of the Land and subject to imprisonment.

    Once that COLLUSION is eliminated that will put an end to our representatives working for the Wall Street Casino Banksters.

    The second part of the solution is the concept of Worker Owned Corporations that compete in a capitalist free market. This means that the PROFITS earned by the workers remain in the bank accounts of those who did all the hard work. More money in the hands of those who earned it means that their QUALITY of life IMPROVES as do their COMMUNITIES.

    That is NOT "socialism" because there is NO government involvement. It is just an extrapolation of the concept of an S Corp from SMALL to MEDIUM to LARGE to MULTINATIONAL corporation sizes.
     
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  17. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I know vote counting is still going on in the majority of states, but I've been running some numbers on 2016 vs 2020... POTUS numbers only. I know a lot of this is the reduction of 3rd party votes, but still...

    Throwing out NY (still too much left to count) and CA (which just gets bluer every cycle), here are some stats to make everyone clear on the general repudiation of Trump...

    There are currently 14 states where the D vote margin (not raw votes) increased by over 90K

    In order of increase - CO, WA, MA, GA (+225K), VA, MN, OR, TX (+160K), MI (+159K), CT, AZ (+104K), NJ, NC (+98K), PA (+92K)

    In only 1 state did the R margin increase over 90K

    Yup.. Good Old Florida (+259K)

    10 states where the D margin gained this cycle, although obviously not nearly enough to change anything there...

    ND, MT, OK, SD, IA, KY, NEB, IN, KS and MO...

    Currently only in DC (??) of Blue "states" did the R margin gain this cycle, but there are still a reported 12% of votes remaining.
     
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  18. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Eventually, but none of the 3 sources I've been looking at have done that... Most of the remaining NC vote should be coming in tomorrow.... I bet the final margin is closer to 50K than 75K... Disappointing overall, but NC will have changed over 100K votes bluer this cycle... NC 2024 will be GA 2020...
     
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  19. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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    Alaska has been called for Trump and Senate GOP.
     
  20. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, that certainly puts Trump over the top.... of 215....
     
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  21. glitch

    glitch Well-Known Member

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    Well for example election laws have been disregarded in Pennsylvania in order to allow ballots to be counted that did not fall within Pennsylvania election laws.
     
  22. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The SC of PA granted emergency extension due to unforeseen circumstances. This is one of the reasons we have a court.
     
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  23. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Arizona called by this website.. this is the one you are following, right?

    https://results.decisiondeskhq.com/

    NBC still not called Ariz or NC.....
     
  24. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    So, I'm confused. How is living in a subjugated society what is best and "serves the needs of" the pubic an private sector? If, as you suggest, China is the answer, why do so many folks living in China fear it? That doesn't sound like "best interest", does it? What it sounds like is a pretty pejorative authoritarian model of obedience to the state or else. How do you suppose that is in the best interest of the public then?

    In China, folks like in fear of their government, unless they are a part of the government, and even then, they must always bow to their collective or they disappear. Is that the "best" for everyone then? I rarely come access someone who is so wrapped in the collective in this country. Assuming you're actually in this country. I doubt this site is available in China, so likely you must be outside of the firewall to find this site. But it still doesn't answer the niggling question about why someone like you, who ostensibly enjoys the freedom of expression and the expectation of having the rights to do so would so publicly attack that system in favor of the Chinese collective. It really seems immoral at best.
     
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  25. glitch

    glitch Well-Known Member

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    Not a fan of Bannon but hopefully you didn't take that literally as that would be pretty nonsensical.
     
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