.22lr, effective round for self defense

rubber bullets eh? ya that must be why the IDF stopped using them, no! hang on it was because the protestors were getting killed!...but here's you the expert that knows more the than the IDF who would've guessed we such an expert in our midst...

and did you bother to look at the link Buckeye Firearms Association as to caliber effectiveness, na I didn't think so otherwise you wouldn't have posted that crap... the .22 does very well...

.25ACP

# of people shot - 68
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
% of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
One-shot-stop % - 30%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%


.22 (short, long and long rifle)

# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%


.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)

# of people shot - 25
# of hits - 38
% of hits that were fatal - 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
One-shot-stop % - 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%


.380 ACP

# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%


.38 Special

# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%


9mm Luger

# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%


.357 (both magnum and Sig)

# of people shot - 105
# of hits - 179
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%


.40 S&W

# of people shot - 188
# of hits - 443
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.36
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 45%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 52%


.45 ACP

# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%


.44 Magnum

# of people shot - 24
# of hits - 41
% of hits that were fatal - 26%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.71
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 59%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 88%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 53%

double click to increase size...

save that sympathy for yourself I'm not the one with paranoia issues...I destroyed my collection of rifles 25ys ago when I gave up hunting and I sleep soundly every night...

 

Yes, the Mossberg is my primary home defense weapon for numerous reasons that beat out other firearms like my .25 and my .357 magnum as well as any other firearms I investigated.

I actually think that people that choose something like a Bushmaster for home defense are idiots. The Bushmaster is good for ranges between 25-150 yards that a person in home defense would never encounter. The maximum range in my home is about 20 feet. A Bushmaster may be good for the Zombie Apocalypse but has little real functional value outside of that. Not to imply that a person should be prohibited from buying one but they really aren't a very good firearm for most purposes. A .223 semi-automatic hunting rifle is functionally better than a Bushmaster for hunting and target practice but it isn't as "cool" looking. LOL Neither are really good for home defense.

 

clothing isn't an issue, if you can pop a .22 through a cows skull clothing is irrelevant...

 

they live in a "Hollywood" world they got to have a gun like "Dirty Harry" or they're gonna die...no one unless they're mentally imbalanced or fueled on drugs is going to mess with you if you have .22 pointing at them, and one shot/hit will be enough to deter them...

 

The key stat, in my personal opinion, is the % of time that the round fails to incapacitate. Below .380, that number is around 40%. Above 380 it's well under 20%. For my money and life, I'll bet on those above 380.

 

Take your brilliant plan to the FBI, local PD's, and to the Military. I'll get the popcorn as they laugh you out of the meeting.

There is a reason the FBI takes a particular shine to teh .40 and the 10mm.

 

We should also note that the probability of a person actually needing to defend themself in a home invasion situation is extremely remote. It does exist but it is still extremely remote. Where a person lives is also highly influential related to the odds against being the victim of a home invasion. I'm prepared but I seriously doubt that it will ever happen to me because the odds are overwhelming that it won't. Of course the odds of my house burning down are are extremely remote but I still have fire insurance.

As I also noted in another thread the reason I have a 12 gauge pump shotgun is that I hope that if I ever face a home invasion that just the sound of chambering a round would cause the intruder to leave. There is no sound more distinctive than the sound of chambering of a round in a 12 gauge shotgun. I really don't want to shoot anyone and would rather they simply leave and not force me to shoot them.

 

Everybody speaks 'shotgun'. I have one for this very purpose as well.

 

You're anti-gun, and your prejudice shows. If you are so enamored of people using .22's, then write your congressman or Obama and have them demand that all the federal agents and military convert to them.

Your study must not carry any weight with any of the police and military around the world---none of them using them for main battle rifles or standard duty sidearms---not even the IDF.

The following study did not even include .22's, as they are laughable as practical defense loads.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

 

The actual impact of a 9mm is something like dropping a 10 lb weight from .75 inches. You won't drop a perp unless you hit the brain stem. If not, you can expect someone that has had a kill shot to operate for another 15 seconds. Many shot with handguns don't even know they are shot.

A wound cavity from handguns are pretty similar and survivable whereas the wound cavity from a rifle can be pretty devastating.

 

I agree with this statement. But your previous statement was still incorrect

 

Just because someone did not include them in a study does not mean much of anything except possible prejudice.

Most people getting killed on the street are killed with small caliber handgun rounds, including the 22. Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter did very will with a 22.

The reason no police department is going to use a 22 is the same reason many changed from 9mm to .40 caliber, glass penetration, particularly angled windshields.

 

Every action has an equal opposite reaction. You are not going to hit a person any harder than you will feel at the giving end. It won't "knock someone down" from impact. Fact is many shot with a handgun do not even realize they have been shot.

 

this statement is simply incorrect.

 

nice physics lesson....all those Hollywood movies with people flying through the air after being shot, complete BS...watch any actual historical footage from WW2 of people being shot with some serious weaponry and they just drop where they stand but that's from injury not impact...

 

Yeah?

Watch:

[video=youtube_share;tku8YI68-JA]http://youtu.be/tku8YI68-JA[/video]

 

agreed, police have other requirements that require them to use something other than a .22 ...the study I linked to showed out of 1800 shootouts 9mm was far and away the most common caliber used and not the .22, more than double the .22's usage ...the study found the only caliber to clearly out perform the .22 was a shotgun...

 

has no effect on your statement being incorrect

 

IMHO, the real test is the failure to incapacitate rate. The .22 failed to incapacitate in 31% of shootings. The .380 failed to incapacitate in 17% of shootings. The .357 magnum failed to incapacitate in 9%. That's a large difference, IMHO.

 

The article I quoted was about the BEST rounds for self defence. Again, this wasn't b/c the experts who wrote the article were "prejudiced" against the .22, it was because they knew no logical person or body would be interested in it.

I've talked about the Cho guy before, he used 2 handguns, with the litlle Walther .22 as one. He shot each victim about 3 times each. Do you know how many were shot with the .22's and how many with the other gun? He used the .22 because he had one---like most of the people out there. As most people do not have an FN-90 submachine gun in their car, closet or waistband, they are not used as much. As nutty as Cho was, he at least knew to have something more powerful on hand for his act of terror than just the .22.

 

fair enough but kill rates were equal and .22 averaged fewer shots to incapacitate than the 357...and the point of the study being other than the shotgun the 22 is as effective as most and more than others...as a defense the .22 is effective and no one facing someone with a .22 is going to ignore it...

 

The .22 didn't incapacitate at over 3 times the rate of the .357. I don't care if I kill in self defense. I'd actually rather not kill. Incapacitation is the goal, not killing. Now, if I were viewing the ammunition with a hunter's eyes, then killing would be more important than incapacitation.


Which study? the OP's study mentioned nothing about shotguns. By OPs study, I mean this one: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

 

russian SPETSNAZ 5.6mm(.22lr)- http://izhevsk.club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html
developed after Chechnya's rebels made effective use of .22lr snipers in street fighting with Russians



Israeli Mossad-.22 Beretta

IDF Ruger 10/22 sniper

 

Then back up your assertion with some facts.

 

if you were in life or death self defense mode I suspect not killing would be the furthest thing from your mind...all the doubters listed the .22 as useless and a number of calibers were mentioned as superior but the study does not come to that conclusion...

"This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the
house
out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important."

???? not sure I understand, shotguns are listed in the study...I don't consider shotguns and rifles in the same category as handguns, neither are as practical as a handgun indoors in tight confined spaces or for personal protection...