A Q&A about post-secondary education

Discussion in 'Education' started by LafayetteBis, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The cost of post-secondary degree is a major impediment to obtaining one for a great many today.

    A Q&A (from the National Center for Education Statistics):

    Q:What percentage of college graduates get a job in their field?
    A: First, a significant number of college grads appear to be underemployed: In 2010*, only 62 percent of U.S. college graduates had a job that required a college degree. Second, the authors estimated that just 27 percent of college grads had a job that was closely related to their major

    *Q:What percentage of college students drop out after the first year?
    A: Currently, community colleges enroll more than 6 million students in the United States. It will be a huge challenge. Thirty percent of college and university students drop out after their first year. Half never graduate, and college completion rates in the United States have been stalled for more than three decades.

    Q: What percent of students get a job after they graduate from college?
    A: About 86 percent of college grads between 25 and 32 said they were either in a "career job" or in "a stepping stone to a career job." Rose's data provide encouragement for today's high school students considering college, or those in jobs who are thinking about going to college.

    Q: What percentage of students finish college?
    A: The National Student Clearinghouse – which tracks more than just first-time, full-time students – found the six-year graduation rate for students who started in the fall of 2006 was 60.5 percent at public four-year colleges, and 62.5 percent at private nonprofit colleges.

    Q: What is the percentage of college graduates who are unemployed?
    A: The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports unemployment rates by education level. As of the January 2017 report which contains numbers for December 2016, the unemployment rate for college graduates was only 2.5 percent. That means that only one out of every 40 college graduates is unemployed

    Q: Do college graduates make more money?
    A: College graduates aged 25 to 32 who are working full time earn about $17,500 more annually than their peers who have only a high school diploma, according to the Pew Research Centre, a think-tank. But not all degrees are equally useful.

    Q: How much does a high school dropout make per year?
    A:The average dropout can expect to earn an annual income of $20,241, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. That's a full $10,386 less than the typical high school graduate, and $36,424 less than someone with a bachelor's degree.

    Q: What are the benefits of having a college degree?
    A: Obviously, higher income is a primary benefit of earning your college degree. But most jobs that require a bachelor's, master's, doctoral or professional degree tend to also provide more benefits. This can include health care, retirement investment, travel and other perks.

    *This appreciation is from 2010, when the Great Recession had occurred. I would suggest that today and given the advent of the Information Age, a postgraduate degree is almost an imperative to obtain a decent level of income. (Note also that In Europe, a post-secondary degree is very inexpensive in most countries because it is funded by the government. See this infographic here.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  2. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Using your $17,500 from your OP, and if we assume 25% of this extra compensation is allocated/dedicated to pay off student loan debt, and if we assume a maximum of ten years to pay off student loan debt, this says 25%*$17,500=$4375*10 years=$43,750 maximum student loan debt goal 'on average'. In 2014 the average student loan debt was $37,172 which is well below the $43,750. Using the same equation as above, $37,172/10 years=$3,717/$17,500=21%. Allocating 21% of the extra compensation generated on average by having a college degree seems quite doable. However, for those who obtain college degrees that won't on average pay $17,500 more per year, or for those who create $50K-$100K in student loan debt, paying off student loans becomes more difficult if not impossible.

    IMO student loan debt should be approached financially the same as buying a $43,750 car...the buyer must be in a position to make the payments until the loan is satisfied. If this cannot be done, or if there is high risk, don't do it! And remember, obtaining a college degree only helps the job seeker get their foot in the human resources door...no guarantee of full-time employment and desired compensation...
     
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Much more simpler, post-secondary educational costs should be EXACTLY LIKE primary and secondary schooling.

    That is, free, gratis and for nothing as in Europe and most of the developed world. Why do you think American companies are running after Indian software-engineers*. Because they can't find them in the US. From here - excerpt:
    But Europe does not seem to have this problem. And why? Here's why: European countries offering free education

    So, why does Uncle Sam have his head up his you-know-what about Tertiary-education? Go figure ...

    PS: In fact, the only place in America offereing FREE post-secondary education is ... The state of New York! See here: New York Becomes Only State to Offer Free Four-Year College
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  4. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    No where in your article here does it say anything about free college education?

    Scientists and engineers working in the United States are increasingly likely to be foreign-born, primarily because the United States continues to attract large numbers of skilled workers from abroad. In an article in the journal Demography, Vanderbilt University professor Mariano Sana reported that the ratio of foreign-born to U.S.-born scientists and engineers doubled in little more than a decade (see figure).1 In 1994, there were 6.2 U.S.-born workers for every foreign-born worker in science and engineering occupations. By 2006, the ratio was 3.1 to 1.

    More than 60 percent of foreign-born scientists and engineers in the United States in 2009 were from Asia, according to Census Bureau data analyzed by PRB. Nearly one-fourth were from India, with another one-fifth from China, the Philippines, and Taiwan.

    Foreign-born residents not only expanded the U.S. high-tech workforce but helped start new businesses that have generated billions in revenue and hired tens of thousands of workers. Foreign-born entrepreneurs helped start one-fourth of all new U.S. engineering and technology business established between 1995 and 2005, including Google and eBay. In high-tech Silicon Valley, California, more than one-half of business start-ups over that period involved a foreign-born scientist or engineer; one-fourth included an Indian or Chinese immigrant.


    I am unaware of any free college education in China?

    And although New Yorker's can get free college, it requires 30 credit hours per semester and the student must live and work in NY for the same amount of time they attended school and if not they pay the full price of their education...
     
  5. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit rusty as to my knowledge of these countries but don't most limit admissions to students based on academic ability and for the arts talent as well, so true you can apply in Sweden to the system, however not everyone gets into a entry level stage of their education system so unlike the USA not everyone can go to school. If you limited the education to the best students for universities say the top 15% of students taking into account GPA and admissions tests or some other standard the top 15% of students in each county graduating a year we could likely afford this. But save for community colleges and trade schools we would need to limit admissions and then limit what degree one can get.

    I would say we would do this okay Jane wants to go to the University of Florida in my state and she is in the top 15% of students in Pinellas County she could apply to say four majors English, History, Nursing and Elementary Education then they would decide how many seats are in each major and the school would decide which major they can enter locking them in for four years. The minor and electives would be open. That would be fair. In return the tuition and housing would be very low cost. But they wouldn't do this so why bother.
     
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is NO ENTRY CRITERIA in France to progress into a Tertiary-level education. Except for certain high-caliber schools. (Which, yes indeed, require pre-entry exams to be taken for suitability.*) Otherwise, a secondary-school degree is all that is necessary to begin what is just a process (that inevitalby leads to a degree and that is true of most of Europe.

    There are only some problems at attending a school of your choice locally - and may be obliged to go elsewhere. But anyone can start the tertiary-level process and then find their way once in it for a modest annual fee. (Around $900 annually.)

    Tertiary-education must be NON-SELECTIVE and not based upon any individual's Sat-Score. The only requirement should be that one has a secondary-school degree.

    Let the person find their own way through to a Tertiary-level degree but make the way as easy to take as possible. Which is not the case given the outrageous cost at even state-schools in the US.

    The "Top This" and the "Top That" in terms of a personal attribution for passing a SAT-exam most professionals say is not the least bit indicative of real personal aptitude (which is the "A" in SAT) is irrelevant. One's potential aptitude at the age these exams are taken is not final - the child is still a child.

    All access must be free and the person then finds their way without the burden of a costly annual fee ...

    That's the only way we are going to get the 55% of high-schoolers who never obtain a post-secondary education to want to at least try to do so ...

    *This process is called "elitism" and must be considered carefully. Intelligence is not always evident at the age the exam is taken, and most experts agree that "competence" does indeed require some intelligence but it is by far not the key-element to success. One's w
    ill (the desire to achieve) is a far more important component and that is not learned, it is intuitive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  7. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    And if I recall students have ample options for learning skills outside of going to the University for example trade schools at the secondary level and other options this is true in all EU nations, we shouldn't have to use higher education to prepare a young man or woman to be a productive worker, higher education should be for those needing that level of education. And should be a limited pool if we in the United States offer a free education it should be for the best students and in paths largely leading to improving labor demands so traditional degrees say Philosophy shouldn't be covered at all and at best should be a minor with majors being useful to society directly leading to work we need done. May I ask should someone with an IQ of 90 go and seek a bachelors degree even if they want to try or should we say your not good enough learn to do some work area (cooking comes to mind) and read books at the library for your intellectual interests which is government funded and free to go and use. Now a more intelligent person going to earn a degree in business now that is useful and should be supported by the government.
     
  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I beg to differ.

    By higher-education I mean also vocational. Insufficient numbers of students are taking these programs, even in Europe where they are far less expensive than in the US.

    Moreover, you seem to think that we are still in the Industrial Age. We aren't. We've been transiting into the Information Age. Industry now employees less than a quarter of the workforce of most countries. From here:
    [​IMG]
    Note how Industrial employment has dropped from 21% of the total to 15% from 1996 to 2016. That trend will continue.

    Furthermore a university education allows the student to see a vast range of subjects that can increase their intelligence-vision and ameliorate reasoning.

    Obtaining a vocational qualification in numerous industries will get a young student just coming onto the Job Market nowhere in most EU-economies today, especially given that countries are extending the workforce on-the-job time to much later ages.

    The blue-bars above in the graphic show where jobs are being created ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  9. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Just because the percentages have decreased does not mean there are fewer jobs. And, society will always need workers in agriculture, forestry and fishing, construction, and all the other categories. All people have varying interests and capabilities/limitations and it won't work to force them into university studies, etc.
     

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