Asylum Seekers-should we or shouldn't we?

In light of the events that have taken place recently, one cannot but feel a little frustrated or maybe perplexed about a situation that is quite serious on humanitarian grounds.

I think it is important for all Australians to seriously discuss issue without partiality or preconceptions. I seriously have a problem with rhetoric and mindless accusations that aim to simply infuse fear and hate. I'll oppose this type of tactic all the time. Questions must be raised but as is the case with politics there are always twists and turns with every argument.

The greens want to increase our intake of refuges to 25, 0000 and provide on shore processing. Both the liberals and government want off shore processing but the liberals want to increas our refuge numbers by another 6,000.

Our parliamentarians can't agree on technicalities, so what is our best option?

 

First, let me say I have no problem with refuges. As for raising the numbers, I do not agree.

However, in my opinion, more resources should be spent on processing where these boats come from. I think the major goal of any policy on the boat people issue should include greater resources and faster processing off shore, where these people apply for refuge status.

There are too many deaths from people using Illegal people smuggling (not that their are legal ones) to justify sitting on our hands and ignoring those that do the right thing and apply to our embassies. I Know of one afgahn family who has been waiting now about 6 years in indonesia for an answer to their request. Imagine that, what a great advert for the people smugglers. Pay them, get to Australia be processed quicker and get out to a better future, does anybody wonder why they continue to do this?

It is one thing to send them over seas to sit and wait, it is another to actually process them overseas before they get on the boats. Of course there are those that are just routing the system but I am sure there are those that are genuine. That is not the question.

However, most of this is simply, MY OPINION.

 

Britain apparently get around 300,000 asylum seekers per year. Our numbers are relatively small in comparison. Not sure of those that gain refuge status though.

Why is this not an option?

I suppose the greens answer to this is to increase numbers, but then it becomes a humanitarian issue at whatever cost to Australia. Is it a significant cost when you think about, more people creating more demand?

You would hope that the screening process eliminates those people, but apparently there havent been too many refuges that have questionable characters. Only a handful are rejected out of thousands, so the Edmund rice centre says anyway.

 

I beleive the amount in Australia is close to 300,000 but I am not entirely sure about that. I do know that Australia (according to the government) is punching well above most of the world in this area, which I do not have a problem with. My problem is that increasing the numbers will in no way, aid in stopping the boats. If anything it will provide more incentive for these criminals to take advantage of people.

It is an option, But governments of the day would rather have this around for political advantage. resources put into action in this fashion would not be seen or politically advantageous for the government of the day. However, processing is in place at all Australian consullar institutes just poorly funded and priorities are for those that arrive on Australian soil by whatever means. Of course there has to be a ceiling on all spending as money is not abundant, but spending it where the boats come from is a better deterant than in Australia.

Yes, However, Again I have no problem with people coming to Australia, it is just how they do it. In saying this, people or politicians will eventually have to look at the ever increasing demand on the Australian economy and human resources (as I am sure they are) to insure that numbers never exceed resource capability (not that I am aware it will be an issue soon)

I guess your right.

 

The Australian Government and the Australian people should be very concerned as to WHY 85% of these “boatie arrivals” are still of welfare benefits up to 5 years and counting.

I think those figure alone speak volumes as to why these parasites are risking life and limb to access Australia through the backdoor that’s enabling them to suckle on the welfare teat without having to contribute a cent to Australia in return.

We need to stop these parasites sucking the money out of the Australian tax payers.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/so...-payments-abroad/story-e6frf7jo-1226079532616

The above is where Australian tax payer money is BLEEDING OUT too.

These parasites are coming to this country and bleeding it dry through another SCAM called “asylum seeker”.

 

Where have you got this figure from?

The article says 1 in 5 are on the dole! The very first sentence says "SOME" Refugees are sending money back home. This is the very thing I despise is this fear mongering, no good infusing hate comments!

I don't think you have bothered to read this article thoroughly Culldav. Go back and read but also, analyse it. I am sure you'll have a different opinion!

 

I wish this was a simple case of black and white....but it's not. It is very grey. I feel for those that have lost their lives in the pursuit of a better life for them and their loved ones. Before I relay a story that was told to me yesterday I will first comment on the amount of asylum seekers we should or shouldn't take. It has been posted that other countries take this and that and their numbers out do ours. Thats well and good, however we are a country of only 23 million, in comparison to the other said countries hundreds of millions. Of our 23 million people, we have children, old age pensioners, disabled pensioners, and other welfare recipients ( we will include politicians at this point in welfare as they don't seem to be contributing much at this moment ) who are unable to contribute to revenue of this nation in a meaningful enough way as to help this situation.

This relatively small amount of contributing tax payers are then left with the burden of supporting these new arrivals who at first are not able to find meaningful work because of barriers such as education and language. These take time to aquire. So to increase our intake would be to our own folly as we do not have the economic means in which to carry this burden. These other countries have a larger pool of income and means in which to dispearse the burden. So even though our great country has all the space to fit these people, all the empathy to console, we just do not have the means in which to carry their burden. It is unfortunately the cold hard truth. The world is not perfect.

At risk of making this such a long winded post, I came across a Sudanese family that have moved into our area. I helped them out by allowing them to pay off some furniture and take it home, just to get started. Nice people, very humble and appreciative. The Father was telling me that they spent ten years in Kenya in a camp waiting for a western nation to take them in. They didn't care which one, such was their dispair. They were from a minority group that was being run out of an area of Sudan. His brother and his family were murdered, so he didn't take any chances and they hoofed it to Kenya, all seven of them. Only six made it, as his elderly mother died along the way. I will try to abreviate to shorten the story. His wife fell pregnant when they were in the camp and unfortunately the child died at birth, and his wife became very sick. She made it. The first offer for asylum came but only four of them were offered places....WTF. This was not an offer from us. They turned it down for obvious reasons...........six years later, hello new Aussies.

This man did not go into too much detail but he did show me some fairly brag worthy scars on his chest and back where he was beaten and slashed with a machete. He was smart enough to learn english while in camp and is about to start his new life here in town. He said most people were a little stand offish at the beginning but now he talks to people up the street all the time. He is about to start work with an earth moving business. He loves our country !

This is but one story of a real refugee, who needed our help and eventually got it. I think the issue here is the time it is taking to process these claims. We fix this and we may well be on the way to limiting illegal access and therefore dangerous travel.

PS. He did tell me, if he had the money he would of gladly handed it over to some crook to get them to OZ. Desperation is desperation no matter the economic circumstance of the individual.

 

Just one quick comment on this complex issue. One blaringly obvious fact that is never attended in the discussion of this issue, is that there are billions of people existing in regions within reach of us, where human despair and brutality are all too common. We simply can`t take enough of these poor souls to make the smallest impact on the issue. Perhaps we would do better to completely stop the boats and concentrate our resources in a more effective way? There are times when confronting reality can be a painfull exercise.

 

There is one massive difference the Sudanese family you describe and these illegal “boaties” that arrive here, and that is: the Sudanese family didn’t travel through seven other countries before hoping on a boat to get through Australia’s backdoor. They went to the nearest safe country that could offer them help and assistance, and these financial opportunistic “boaties” don’t do this. 99% of these “boatie” arrivals are coming from the Middle East, and the closest safe country to them that could offer them UN supported assistance is Russia, but none of make the journey across land locked countries into Russia for help - nor do they try to make the journey to other European land locked countries that could also offer them UN support and protection.

What these “boaties” do is travel through seven other countries making their way to Indonesia, and then decided to hire people smugglers and pay them $10,000 per ticket to hop on a leaky rickety boat to travel to Australia through the backdoor. WHY?

If you are genuinely trying to escape persecution and in genuine fear for your life you go to the nearest country for help, exactly what the Sudanese family did - that you described.

These “boaties” are not coming to Australia though desperation or wanting to make a better life for their families by wanting to be part of Australia, they are coming simply to attach themselves to Australia’s easy welfare and public housing system whereby they don’t have to contribute a thing - and 85% are doing exactly that.

The Governments own report highlighted that up to 85% of these “boaties” were still suckling the tax payer welfare teat up to 5 years and counting. Yes, there are some initial problems with language and social barriers in these “boaties” obtaining work, but 85% of them not finding work up to 5 years is a bloody joke and insult, and shows the true intent why that specific group (boaties) don't get work, and other genuine refugees that come to Australia do get work.

When your risking a lifetime living off another countries easy welfare system and a $10,000 ticket; you are going to concoct the best lies you can possibly think off to get yourself granted asylum. Fear for your life, going to be raped and bashed if you are forced to return, is exactly the woe is me bullshyte these “boaties” tell get Australians to feel sorry for them, but its all a con and a scam.

I have no compassion or empathy for criminals regardless of circumstances - you do the crime and you do the time and the punishment.

Australia and Australians SHOULD be saying NO to $10,000 ticket holders, and YES to genuine refugees in camps.

 

If I was genuinely in fear for my life or the life of my family, I would be going to nearest countries for help and assistance - New Zealand and New Guinea. I would only consider country hoping to Sweden if I thought the population was stupid & easily coned and scammed, and once accepted as asylum seekers, we could live off their welfare system indefinitely.

Dumb-arse Aussie do-gooders and bleeding hearts just don’t understand the rules of the scam game yet!!


LOL LOL

 

I think it was a mistake to extend the refugee convention beyond 67.

Imo it's at best a sort of perverse lottery, and at worst a corrupt process dominated by criminals.

I think the slow drip of minorities out of these countries just increases the suffering of the people and the countries that these refugees leave behind.

I think it's ridiculous to fight a war in Afghanistan for a decade, all the while aiding in the citizens we are supposed to be helping in a mass exodus out of the country.

I think emigration (economic and refugees) and foreign aid are a plague on the third world and need to be seriously re-examined.

 

I suppose you have an opinion on the sheer number of Australians who are on welfare for the same period of time, or longer?

 

Back in the middle to late 1970s the Song Be 12 arrived in Darwin. To our credit we welcomed the Vietnamese refugees who were fleeing the new regime back in Vietnam. And to the credit of the Fraser government they they did not turn what was a humanitarian issue into a political issue. Of course John Howard didn't hesitate to do so. Fraser ensured policy was non-partisan, Howard poisoned it for his own political gain. You may not remember but the Coalition was doing crap in the polls until the MV Tampa was sighted on the horizon.

Cut the political bull(*)(*)(*)(*). This should be seen as a humanitarian problem and dealt with accordingly. I don't mean in a sooky-la-la response, I mean a hard-headed but fair political policy response. First question, why are they coming here? Sort that out and you are on your way. Second question, how about speeding up the process everywhere so that people languishing in crappy refugee camps for years don't feel the need to hop on a leaky boat for Australia.

 

In the 70's we took in more than twice the number of refugees we accept now. Just heard about that on Twitter.

 

This is a good site Garry, they're an NGO:http://www.erc.org.au/index.php?mod...entManager_op=viewDocument&JAS_Document_id=64

It may answere a number of question or I suppose create a number of other questions.

 

hahaha...politicians=welfare. The previous post to garry has a link to the Edmund Rice Centre, it actually suggests that our ratio is quite low compared to other countries. I do understand though, that there are other variables that Australia needs to consider in the event of increasing numbers.

I know this has been an argument in the past, especially in terms of population increases but in the last 25 years technology has allowed countries to cope much more with increased populations imo. Not sure what you mean in terms of other countries having a larger pool of incomes Slippery?

Yeah, I'm personally aware of a similar story from a sudanese family(I wonder if we live in the same town)who were quite well off, but were very open to persecution for reasons I'm not completely sure about. Again, you couldn't get a more humble and appreciative people, but have had some fantastic support from the community to settle in.

I think we have to somehow try and put ourselves in the same position to appreciate the decisions people make. We are fortunate to have been born where and when we were born, if that makes sense.

 

Your right Ziggy. This is another issue with the refugee problem that you have highlighted and something we don't really think about. These refugees that come by boat and have paid a heavy fare are usually educated and have a political background. Political views are a common reason for fleeing their country quickly. Take these individuals and many like them out of their populace and it greatly hinders the recovery and forward movement of that country. So inadvertantly this mass exodus does not help the situation at all.

A different angle on a difficult problem Ziggy.

 

In terms of other countries having more income to disperse the cost of refugees, it is about population. They have more people, more tax revenue, therefore more access to to income. Basically if a flat costs $100 per week to rent and one person rents it, it costs them $100. If four people rent it ( the cost doesn't change ) , it will cost each person $25 per week. A very basic way to describe the dispersment of cost.

we have had many Sudanese families come but after the mandatory year they move to local communities in the cities. Not all have been good people. We had one family that made living near them a nightmare. They had to be moved on. Don't worry we have bad eggs with Aussie accents too.

I couldn't imagine what these people have been through, and sure we are going to get some bad people, but we get good ones too. My grandmother would say " we have totrust in humanity ". She might be right, but boy its getting hard.

My grandfather however would say, " the problem is like an old dog with cancer. You know he is suffering and you need to put him down, but the decision is hard. Watching him die is hard also ". He might be right too.

Watching asylum seekers suffer might be like the old dog, difficult but unavoidable. Sign of a world that has lost its way.

 

But the ratio is based on per capita basis such as the following:
•Tanzania hosts one refugee for every 76 Tanzanian people (1:76)
•Britain hosts one refugee for every 530 British people. (1:530)
•Australia hosts one refugee for every 1583 Australian people. (1:1583)

Alot of the issues can be attributed to how people are treated in communities. I remember a time at school when we had an influx of turkish immigrants. It was quite a unique experience for these children and ourselves. As they grew up things became a little different in their behaviour after having fun loving characters and obviously very friendly, along with a strong desire to learn the english language and generally be accepted. In our school setting their experience were I suppose quite sheltered, but to my dissappointment the attitude to our new immigrants was extremely negative in the wider community. Not surprisingly, these children grew up to be quite resenting of community and therefore involved in various crimes and had lost a complete trust in society. Years later, I had the opportune to speak with one of these guys who said that initially their experience living in australia was unbelievable, but as they got older all they experienced was racism and abuse from random people. It was quite sad to see how their lives slowly deteriorated into a lonely world of survival. I have never forgotten this to this day this scenario and this comment. I have seen many other examples of similar issues right throughout my life and will always be suspicious of how we as a nation treat people of outward physical difference. I'm not completely cynical, and have seen a huge change as you may have regarding how people are more accepting of people with differences.

As stated above, I think because we make it hard.

I like the analogy, but I can't help to think that it doesn't have complete context here. This isn't incurable, it needs a good dose of penicilin.

 

I won't get into why these people were moved on other than it involved breaking into old peoples homes, violence, and a machete or two. Scary dudes, should of been shipped straight back.

I don't really prescribe to the bleeding heart view that we shouldn't be blamed for doing bad things because of our pasts. Not saying our pasts don't effect us, but we have the freedom to make a choice between right and wrong. Too often we excuse anti social behaviour because old mate was bullied when he was ten. IMO that is a load of crap, and only enables bad choices. I am not a civil libertarian, and even though I admit they have their place, they have created a world where free speech and thoughts are censored and worse still disciplined. To me free means free, whether it be a cupcake or an opinion. Some thoughts and words can be hard to hear, but it is your choice to listen. They have as much right as the next person to say and think what they wish. IMO. It is up to the rest of us to be above it.

Vigilante I am not so sure of its incurability . While we have wars and political and religious persecution, we will always have refugees. If you can tell me that we will one day see the end of war and persecution, then i may be convinced of its curability. I think denying the reality will do more harm than good.

Tell me those figures you stated, do they include illegal arrivals or just preconcieved arrivals ?

 

The humanitarian aspect of this issue is indeed genuine, and important. My questions to you are.

1. How many of the billions of potential refugees do we have the capacity to take in?

2. Do you want to be responsible for encouraging a tidal wave of desperate people to risk their lives for a forlorn hope?

 

That's totally wrong and way out of context. Freedom comes from allowing people to be free, this includes freedom from racism, discrimination and stereotyping. A free society doesn't mean that all people are free slippery, when ignorance is present.
I agree that these people need to be sent back home immediatly especially in the event of a heinous crime as you raise. However, there is a lot of good work being undone by a contingent of people who are outright ignorant and those that are blissfully so. The "MEDIA" again have a lot to answer for. We complain and complain and complain about these guys time and time again but are always hoodwinked by their notion that " Good News Is No News". There should be actions taken against people who cause civil unrest at a micro level and who are essentially taking the freedom of others via sterotyping and defamation, but more should be done about these media outlets who disgustingly get away with it time and time again.

While we still have drug addicts and drugs in society, we will always have a war on drugs. It's it just a cancerous old dog that we should just say " What the hell" to. These constant battles in societies are based on the premise of hope and optimism, not negativity and pessimism. How destructive would that be??!!

This should provide you with some answers to your questions: http://www.erc.org.au/index.php?mod...entManager_op=viewDocument&JAS_Document_id=64

 

85% of Australians are not on welfare. There are also no other refugee groups registering such HIGH documented figures of being on welfare for such a long periods - only the “boaties” were recognised in the Government report.

The spotlight has to be focused on WHY just this group of refugees (boaties) DON’T seem to be able to find work, when the majority of other refugees entering the county can find employment.

There were many other refugees that came here by boat with language and social barriers, and they didn’t seem to have a problem finding work, so why are 85% of middle eastern “boaties” still hanging around sucking on the welfare teat up to 5 years.

It’s a valid question that needs to be seriously addressed, because it has nothing to do with language and social barriers.

 

could you please post supporting evidence so that we can make sense of what you are trying to say please.

 

Vigilante I did use IMO in my sentences.

To me free means free. If we have restrictions on that then we are not a free society. You have to take the good with the bad. You can't have the freedom to express the opinion that refugees are good, if someone hasn't got the freedom to object. In the end it is words we are talking about. In what way does ignorance offend ? It can be irritating, but offensive ? I pity ignorance. In short you can't have free and restrict in the same sentence as it creates an oxymoron.

You see the pure scope of this refugee problem is far beyond Australias capacity to cope with. Its sort of like the liferaft of a sinking ship. It only carries 100 people, but 200 are to be saved. Do you put the 200 on the liferaft in hope knowing full well the disastrous outcome of all people dying as the raft inevitably sinks under the weight of the extra load ? Or do you face reality, and save 100 people knowing full well the raft can cope with that load and success has a better percentage ?

It is a horrible situation, but humans have created this over thousands of years of self destruction. Am I being pessimistic...perhaps, I don't know. I am not pessimistic by nature, but hope seems a distant light on the horizon and fading fast in respects to this issue. The question is, are we all as residents of Australia willing to forgo the lifestyle we have and have enjoyed, to allow thousands and thousands of refugees access to our lifestyle, and inevitably change it ?

Remember the lifeboat ?

Thanks for the website, however they did not have a breakdown on figures. This is a website arguing for refugees and obviously biased that way. Fair enough. I did not find too much in the way of the negative on it.