Australian crime statistics since the gun ban - homicides DOWN

"First do no harm"

Tell that to someone that's either shooting at you or is coming at you with a knife. Use your "words" and "actions" and see how far you get. " Freedom must be fought with words and actions" AND, YES, GUNS!!! I have asked you twice now, this will be the third time, what life and death scenario have you faced (your life being the one on the line) that you feel free to preach to others and how to put their life on the line without a weapon. Come on, tell us, we are all waiting with baited breath.

 

{{{{{{{{{{shrugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Am more likely to be hit by lightning

And that is my point - I am unlikely to ever have to face someone threatening me with a knife, although I did have a prowler enter my room and make a suggestion - pushed him back out of the door and called for help. As for the rest...............ever worked in an ED? Ever had to subdue someone who is withdrawing? Ever had to handle someone going through an acute psychotic episode? I have. We just do not have to worry about them ALSO having guns

 

Then you have lived a VERY protected life. they were knife fighting when I was in Jr. High and I wasn't allowed to carry a knife so I learned to disarm someone that had a knife. I've got some nice scares from the lessons. As I already told you, I was shot at 5 times with nothing to shot back with. My parents bought a large place in South Western Oregon that had an old boy scout camp on it of about 5 acres of old growth timber. There was another 10 acres attached to it of dog hair (look it up) and in this last area we found an old out house hidden from view. There was a large prescription bottle half filled with white powder which we poured down the hole of the out house. The next thing we know there are people shooting at us when we start back up to what we called the Park. It wound up there was a group of people 15 to 30 years in age in the area that were connected and using drugs and we poured out part of their stash. This was in 1956, 57, & 58. In 1965 I had a cousin murdered by this same group that was working with the police. So sit there and tell me how nothing like this ever happens. I pulled a 13 year old daughter out of school in the Tacoma area because she was having trouble with a group of kids and had a knife pulled on her and the school counselor told me I had been watching to much T.V. because things like that didn't happen in school. After I showed her my set of scares I pulled my daughter out. Within 2 weeks a couple of boys that knew two of my girls in school wanted them to come and watch wrestling practice with them, we told the girls NO! On the way out of the gym an ex-girlfriend of one of the boys was waiting there with a gun and killed both boys. If my daughters had of been with them they would be dead also. The ex-girlfriend??? She shot herself when the police found her. As far as the "ED" goes, (I am guessing but I believe it would be the same thing as our emergency room here in the states) I would rather put the perp in there than be put in there myself or have a member of my family put in there if I could stop it from happening. You don't like guns, fine, we understand that, but you have no right to try and take mine from me or take on the," We better than thou", over it. As I have told you before, I was trained at home how to use weapons, I was trained in the military how to use weapons, and I trained on the police force on how to use weapons, I REALLY don't think there is anything you can tell me about them that I don't know, do you??

 

And again you are setting up a straw man by announcing it is a clear dichotomy - it is NOT. Nothing in life is clear cut. All have shades of grey. Although I say "do no harm" I accept say that vaccines can cause harm but overall there is a much much higher rate of good. It comes down to "balance of probabilities" and each circumstance is unique

As for the pictures - they are NOTHING. Nice clean wounds easily repaired.

Here are some real (not nice Hollywood holes with nubile maiden dabbing at the drop of blood) gunshot wounds http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/092402/JohannesburgTraumaUnit3.htm
Or this one



The black bit is a "vac" dressing and the abdomen is open because there is too much abdominal pressure to close - he is ventilated and the machine next to him is an artificial kidney machine, he is also on heart support drugs and will be "lucky" to live. Odds are his kidney function will never be the same again - not to mention other organs

Knife wounds do NOT have the lethality that gunshot wounds do

This is because knife wounds are a low velocity impact whereas gunshots are high velocity impact

Knives won't do this (and I picked a black and white photo on purpose



Now, imagine that person is still alive and you will have SOME, just a little idea of what sort of wounds i have cared for and the dreadful psychological toll it took on everyone

I

Oh! I think by now you might have got the truth about gunshot wounds. See unlike many many many on here being "internet heroes" I have actually SEEN, up close and personal gunshot wounds. I have had to care for the person with that dreadful injury, I have had to talk with the devastated families, I have had to clean the wounds and dress the wounds knowing the infection battle we are going to have as the disrupted tissue becomes necrotic and dies. A knife wound you can sew up straight away, unless it was a particularly dirty knife. Minimal tissue disruption - patient home from ED. Gunshot wound, well look at the ICU picture.

So, am I right in thinking you are HAPPY to see a loved one in one of the situations above? On principle then you would not secure a firearm even if it put your children in danger?

I shudder at the thought of the 3D printers which is why I think we might see limited access to them. But I would still be happy with the current law that states if you have an unsecured firearm you had better have a bloody good reason for it otherwise the cops can intervene.

I want a society that says "guns are undesirable" that way there is less need for laws. This is the opposite message to the NRA

 

No, have led a typical Aussie life and I am sorry that you could not have lived THIS life. I am sorry America is so violent

See this is where I believe America is in it's own private arms race. Arming everyone in sight is not going to help that situation. It just makes it easier for the bad guys to GET guns in the first place. I live in a rural town, a mining town. The only people carrying guns on the street are the cops and I have to tell you that personally if I were breaking the law I would be more concerned about their footwear than their guns as weapons. Shootings are RARE here. Stabbings less rare and more commonly domestic violence. Yes, we have drugs, especially among the "bike" community but you steer clear, as much as possible from that and let the cops handle things

Break ins- because the home owners are less likely to have guns so are the burglars - besides which their primary motive is money not attacking people so usually if you make a noise they will leave.

The serial rapist breaking into houses - very very rare

 

""It just makes it easier for the bad guys to GET guns in the first place""

And this is where we disagree, if you took the guns away from the law abiding citizens then guess what the bad guys would do.


"" I live in a rural town, a mining town.""

And I live at the moment in a town of 1,500 that's a mill and logging town.


""The only people carrying guns on the street are the cops""

And it's the same way here. Even though I have my Concealed Weapons Permit I usually don't carry and when I do it is "concealed". So, please don't think we are still in the old west with people packing guns in western style holsters every place because that isn't the way it is. Although if it were it would be a much politer society.


"".... if I were breaking the law I would be more concerned about their footwear than their guns as weapons.""

There is a mind set of the police in this nation and it's, "I'm going home tonight". So, if you were committing a crime and decided to run you WOULD have guns pointed at you.

""" Shootings are RARE here""

Kind of hard to shoot with the guns you don't have.

""""Stabbings less rare and more commonly domestic violence"".

Of course, you people gave up your gun rights, what's left after you decide to outlaw knives, baseball bats??

"" Yes, we have drugs, especially among the "bike" community but you steer clear""

And just WHY do you steer clear??? Don't you have the same right to use the same sidewalk and breath the same air as them??? That's what gets me, you people are willing to give up most everything so there will NOT be a confrontation. Sorry, I don't believe in walking around when the quickest way is through them.

"""Break ins- because the home owners are less likely to have guns so are the burglars""

But the ones that do break in are more likely to have bats or knives or other weapons to subdue you with. You have more than twice as many burglaries as us.

"".. besides which their primary motive is money not attacking people so usually if you make a noise they will leave.""

Sorry, not going to allow them to leave once they are in the house. If I feel threatened, they die, if not, they will wait for the police with or without the knot on their head.

 

As far as rape goes you have much more of that than the U.S.. Australia is ranked 43rd in the world while the U.S. is ranked 57th and I see your neighbor, New Zealand, is ranked 13th. Now, how does this happen is such peaceful countries???

 

Been over this before

Australian statistics include ALL SEXUAL ASSAULT not just rape as US stats do

 

Then tell us, is it still this way;

Rape and sexual assault are two of the most underreported crimes in Australia. The ABS Victims of Crime Survey 1996 indicates that only 25% of sexual assaults are reported to police. Other researchers have estimated that as few as 10% of rapes are reported to the police (F.B.I). Only a small proportion of the offences reported to the police are prosecuted in court and less than half of these will result in a conviction.
http://www.brissc.org.au/resources/for/for_7.html

"The Sydney gang rapes were a series of gang rape attacks committed by a group of up to fourteen Lebanese Australian Muslims led by Bilal Skaf against Australian women and teenage girls, as young as 14, in Sydney Australia in 2000. The crimes— described as ethnically motivated hate crimes by officials and commentators[1][2][3]— were covered extensively by the news media, and prompted the passing of new laws. The nine men convicted of the gang rapes were sentenced to a total of more than 240 years in jail. According to court transcripts Judge Michael Finnane described the rapes as events "you hear about or read about only in the context of wartime atrocities""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes

Do you agree with this;

The Australian legal system: An overview

It is well established that sexual assault is one of the most - if not the most - difficult offences to successfully prosecute (i.e. to obtain a conviction); approximately 85% of sexual assaults never come to the attention of the criminal justice system (Lievore, 2003; VLRC, 2004; Heath, 2005; ABS, 2005). Of those offences that are reported, only a small proportion proceed to trial, with an even smaller percentage of these cases resulting in a successful conviction (ABS,2004; Lievore, 2003; Heath, 2005; Heenan & Murray, 2006). According to current research, this difficulty in obtaining successful convictions may be attributed to a number of factors, including:

low rate of reporting sexual offences;
attrition of sexual assault cases at various stages of the justice system and trial procedure (Lievore, 2003; Heath, 2005; Heenan & Murray, 2006);
treatment of complainants throughout the trial;
distrust of women/survivors by the criminal justice system;
difficulty in obtaining evidence/providing sufficient evidence (e.g., the availability of forensic medical or DNA evidence) (Briody, 2002-2003); and
belief in sexual assault myths and stereotypes (Heath, 2005).


And then you say that "" ALL SEXUAL ASSAULT"" constitute rape in Australia??

""Every jurisdiction in Australia has its own legislation for sexual offences. The sexual offences legislation table (located at the end of this document) is a compilation of the current legislation for each state and territory pertaining to sexual assault.""
http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/sheets/rs1/

Understanding the laws of sexual assault

Although each jurisdiction has its own sexual offences legislation, there are some common elements to any criminal offence that tell us how the offence is defined and what must be proven by the prosecution in order to find someone guilty.

This section describes the elements of an offence with specific reference to sexual assault, describes some trends shaping sexual assault law reform, and highlights some of the key debates and controversies relating to sexual assault law and criminal trials.

What needs to be established in a sexual assault case

Engaging in the defined behaviour without consent; for example, penetration of the vagina with a body part or object without the consent of the victim Two components need to be established to demonstrate actus reus: Sexual activity occurred; and it occurred without consent. Presence/absence of consent, rather than the actual occurrence of sexual activity, is generally contested in trials.

The defendant's intention, recklessness or knowledge of the prohibited act The defendant intended to do the physical act, and the defendant was aware that the victim was not consenting, or was reckless* towards whether or not the victim was consenting. It is not enough for the complainant to know in themselves that they do not consent - the defendant must have knowledge of this non-consent to be considered legally guilty.

The defendant's actions cannot have been involuntary Involuntary actions may include: reflex actions; sleep walking; or being in a state of altered consciousness. Extreme self-induced intoxication is not considered evidence that a defendant's actions were involuntary. It is generally accepted that individuals so affected by alcohol would be unable to perform a sexual act.
Temporal coincidence The actus reus and mens rea must occur at the same point in time for the defendant to be criminally liable for his actions. The defendant had sexual intercourse with the complainant, ywithout her consent, at the same time as knowing that, or being reckless towards whether, she was not consenting."""

Sounds just about like it is here, Bowerbird. Care for me to continue???

 

Rape is underreported EVERYWHERE - check your own crime stats on that!

One incident does not reflect the total statistics - did not say rape does not happen in Australia

Yes that is true but it does not detract from the fact that we have a broader definition of crimes listed under the title of "sexual assault" IF a guy kisses a guy in the street and the bloke being kissed object THAT IS SEXUAL ASSAULT. If someone puts their hand up a girls skirt in a bar - that is sexual assault. If you "goose" a woman THAT IS SEXUAL ASSAULT

But your crime statistics only include RAPE or penetration

 

"""Yes that is true but it does not detract from the fact that we have a broader definition of crimes listed under the title of "sexual assault""""

How on earth would you know??? We have 50 states and each one have their own Rape and sexual assault laws, have you bothered to look them up in each state??? No??? I didn't hardly think so. If a person in this country puts their hands on a female and she objects it's Sexual assault. In this state if you use the word "Tomato" in front of a female on the job site it's sexual harassment. There is a list of 55 words that you can NOT use on the job site and the majority are not swear words. So don't preach to me about "we have a different standard that you". Here if you put your hand up a females dress you would be in jail so fast you would wonder what happened. If you so much as touch a female and she doesn't like it your on your way to jail. And goose??? My god, not only sexual assault but battery also. Where in gods name did you get the idea you could get away with things like that in America?? Been watching to much T.V. and going to too many movies???