Born That Way

Born That Way. More of the same in the debate of the are people born gay? I think it the answer is so obvious, and people are indeed born homosexual, but that is my bias.

I often hear from people at church that God created "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" and then they use the verse Matthew 19: 4-5 which states (NIV) “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

I find it amazing that they use this tiny part of Matthew, from a passage where Christ speaks about divorce, yet if one was to read further on in the SAME passage I think it is plain to see that Jesus makes reference to the fact that some people are born gay, and this does not apply to them.

Further along in the passage one can read Matthew 19: 11-12 which reads: 11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Here I get someone telling me what a eunuch is, the issue I have is that everyone understands that there were in that time people who were made eunuchs (technically today if you had a vasectomy i think you are a eunuch as well), and there is agreement that eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven are celibates, and priests who choose to devote themselves to God over women, but eunuchs that were born that way somehow means the 1% of the male population born with testicular issues. I think it is obvious that Jesus is talking about men who are not attracted to women sexually.

I think reading of the whole passage is also important to grasp the context of the conversation. The whole conversation is Matthew 19 1-12.

WWJD?

Jesus would love and accept gay people, because they were born that way.

Here is the main problem (I think): If god created us and the world, then god created gay people, if you denounce gay people then you are denouncing god and his creation. Therefore people who are into the god creation idea cannot under any circumstance even think it is possible for homosexuals to be born that way, or else they will realize it is not God who discriminates, but them who are the discriminators, and they are denying God's creation.

 

Oh, so what makes them 'born that way'? Is there a gay gene? Is there some knock on the head they get while in the womb that makes them born that way?

Or is sexuality a lot like religion? Deep seated, an important part of who you are ... but neverthless subject to influence and change? People change religions, and, as terms like hasbians imply, people change sexual orientation as well.

Born that way? Really? Why do people have to defend their religious choices, but not the sexual choices? If you told me you were just 'born' to be a pedophile or a horse rapist, I would laugh in your face.

You want to be gay, great, more power to ya. You want to be just 'born that way', well, I'd certainly like to see the proof of that - not the speculation (I'm quite familiar with it) but the proof. Where is the gay gene? Where is the thing that I can trun on and off in a human to make someone gay? SOmething that indicates predestination and has proven itself a reliable indicator.

Because what happens is that any two random populations of human beings will have statistical anomolies. Th research that indicates a correlation in two random test groups, when applied to another test group, has thus far failed to hold water.

Might gay people be born that way? Perhaps. The evidence for this is at best speculative, and certainly not to the point of being anywhere close to definitive. Are there things besides choice that influence sexuality? I would say that is undoubtedly true, but many of these are no doubt related to unpringing exposure, etc. as they are to any genetic proclivities.

I was just born that way, in terms of something like sex is a cop out.

 

1st of all, let me do a quick summary of my belief system: I am a Christian who believes that the earth is older than 6000 yrs (I've been a rock hound and also worked in the petroleum industry during my life), have a science degree and studied Modern Science, Astrophysics, etc., and believe in the "Spirit behind the scriptures" as understood by the men who were 'divinely inspired' and wrote them down during their times.

Now with all that said, let me say that I believe in the 'adaptation' of all of the species on this changing earth over millions of years, which have resulted in the many variations rooted from a common creation.

And, with regards to 'being born that way,' I have had several homosexual friends & acquaintances during my life (college and after), and what appeared on the surface as 'gay' was in fact sadness in not being societies norm and natural outcasts.

Having studied Psychology and Sociology in college, I remember one study that showed where an over-population of rats in a small area over time produced homosexual behavior. To me, this indicated that the result of over-population produces the 'non-propagating' species behavior to limited over crowding and over population. I believe that not only a species' behavior can be modified by conditions, but over long term may show up as genetic modifications when over an extended period of over population.

I believe that that is what we are experiencing today in modern society. But being 'intelligent creatures' with free will that over-rides genetic instincts, we have the choice to follow this animally or to choose, with our 'free will of intelligence,' to deny that adaptation...where to put in atheistic terms: homosexuality is a 'dead end' behavior of evolution whereby NOT propagating the species, and those affected by practicing it are but part of the 'evolutionary extinctions' that have resulted over the ages

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI1_jzPEcwU"]Is Being Gay A Choice? Religion vs. Reality - YouTube[/ame]

Because it is.

 

Read Thomas Didymus.. He was a twin..

 

then you were not 'born' to be what your biology is.


ie.... the life of YOU, is of your biology. You can believe you are 'god' if you want and in many ways, still put your head into a poop shoot, if you like.

Biologically, you are a boy or a girl with the exception of hermophradite.

Now prove you are of both genders, which can be done in the womb and you have a case. Otherwise, the 'sexual orientation' of a biological life, is and can be predominately identified by the gender.

Gay, homosexual, and bisexual 'behavior' is of 'choice'.

so....

jesus aint thinking about or here to talk about it either.

i denouce a liar misleading people to believe what aint true

the biology is how to identify the gender and orientation, while the liar can teach anyone, anything and confuse them on how life even operates.

hence why this garbage is in a religious section

god aint some dude, telling anyone anything..... NATURE is the god of all that is and naturally, if a life dont procreate, that branch to the lineage is going to die off.

self serving morons dont do what is natural for their very life to continue....

such is the 'choice'


good lives
bad, loss to the common


it's stupid easy

 

So then this genetic anomaly is part of the evolutionary success of the human species, so as not to allow the species to fall into extinction thru over crowding and using up too much of the earth's natural resources?! I.e. homosexuality is a 'dead end' to control the propagation of the human species...and, so mankind shud be celebrating homosexuality with you as being 'their savior'..?!

 

Who said any of that?

 

I am a 'homophan,' or rather homoFan, and appreciate their 'selfless sacrifice' to avoid the downward marching of the human species toward extinction! Plus male homosexuality provides a bigger female base for us heteros to select from and propagate thru....hooray!

 

i see you as a flamer, already!

 

Would that be a "homophlamer"..?!

My logic which is well thought out and presented a few posts back is science and social based..where your comments are your usual...'homotrollish' tripe...will you EVER quit while you are behind?!!

I know, I know..you kaint hep yosef...

EDIT: Sorry, folks..I fed the Relgion section troll again....plz 4give me.

 

'Skipping' past the usual trollish phray, er I mean fray, let me expound on my previous post:

So altho a genetic modification may have occurred in modern humans to limit over crowding and the possibility of over population and over use of the earth's resources, individuals still have that 'intelligence of free will' to make socially acceptable decisions. For example, let's say that evolution has taken me from an instinctive primordial creature to my present intelligent state of reasoning and rationale. So instead of hating my enemy, and killing him, and subsequently eating him, I can now make a socially acceptable choice to merely disagree with him.

Just as those with the homosexual gene anomaly (if it does indeed exist) can also make a free will choice to do the 'socially unacceptable thing' of yielding to it, and then 'eating' someone (altho not 'literally') which does not advance the human population.

And so, what rules modern mankind? Yielding to his instincts and genetic deviance's...or doing the socially acceptable thing and advancing our species?!

BTW, making the socially unacceptable thing 'acceptable,' does not advance the species and flies in the face of the whole evolutionary theory of the propagation of the species with the 'survival of the fittest'.....

 

um dude this is the religion section, in case you are lost or confused. I'm discussing the bible here. you should take these questions to the science section.

 

not sure the relevance of that is with this topic?

 

Is that somewhere in the bible or is this just an assertion you have without evidence?

With what?



Stupid stupid.

 

It is important to separate homosexual sexual orientation and behaviour.

A homosexual is someone who is attracted to the same gender. That is surely not a choice, just as any other sexual or even non-sexual attraction is not a choice.
The cause may be genetics, hormones in the womb or even environmental. But either way, this attraction is not a choice.

On the other hand, homosexual behaviour is a choice.

 

its not important in this context.

 

Basically.

 

It does not matter whether or not it is genetic. God created gay people.

It is not up to me or you to Judge Gays as they are not harming either of us.

Perhaps the reason God created gay folks was to test whether or not people could follow the rule "Do not Judge" as Jesus points out when he deals with the adulterous woman. .

 

You skipped over a posts from almost a week to seek out a personal grudge didn't you?

You ignored, as usual, any of the points made, and are not even addressing the points made. The point is that homsexuality is genetic, and should not be ascribed such as scientific fact - because it isn't.

Its a matter of choice, not a matter of judgement. But you missed that ... which is what happens when you choose pride.

You do realize you are headed down the same path General Zod just took?

 

I don't have a personal grudge against you Neutral. Just because some people hold beliefs that differ from yours does not mean they dislike you.

As far a skipping posts .. did you view the video in Post 4 ?

Being attracted to members of the same sex is not a choice. Acting on that attraction is.

Scientists have not completely nailed down where attraction comes from but the idea that attraction is a choice is not accepted by the Scientific nor does the idea make any sense.

You do not "choose" whether or not you like mushrooms. You can choose to not eat mushrooms, but you can not choose whether or not they please your Palette.

 

Agh yeah, you do. When you jump into a forum and seek out posters who comments are buried, and use any minor pretext to drag up week old arguements because it burns you deeply that someone outsmarted you - that is personal. And if that is the case, then perhaps a debate forum is not for you.

I give you warning now gifted, you are on the same road that General Zod went on last night. Your comments become increasingly personal, you name drop me in multiple threads and are clearly fixated. Deny it all you want, so did GZ.

As for homosexuality, it would be nice as you drag up one strawman after another in your personal quest for revenge, if you actually acknowledged what my position was on the subject - and what the OP is being rebutted as. Its the OP saying its beyond choice, and yet - your position is aimed at me.

I will rebut when I detect and actual response and not just a reflexive whiplash of denial because your heart throbs for vengence .... on a debate forum

 

Why would you feel personally attacked by this post below? I make a number of responses to the topic .. none of which you address.

You spend a whole post claiming to be persecuted rather than addressing my comments in relation to the topic.

Why do you feel personally attacked by this post ?

 

maybe he likes being a martyr as it makes him feel better about his line of thinking.

Though it is odd to post on a message board and then get offended when people quote you or use your fake name.

 

Notice he doesnt suggest they marry. And a eunuch isnt a gay. Just a man, incapeable of procreation because he has had his balls removed.