Does it matter why people are gay?

How many gays have been killed in the USA, in the past 10 years, by Christians in the name Christianity? In fact, in the USA, how many gays have been murdered by anyone simply because they were gay?

Show me exactly where in the New Testament - that's where Christianity is defined - it says that gays should be killed or punished.

Denying membership to a private club (which is what religion is) to someone who directly violates the requirements for membership is not illegal. In fact, why would someone even want to join such a club that is incompatible with their life unless they intend to cause disruption and harm?

Telling people they have to follow the law is not jihad as long as the law applies equally to all. But targeting Christians, going out your way to cause trouble for Christians, seeking extreme unusual punishment against Christians, driving people into hiding in fear for their lives, making people unemployable out of fear of the gay mob, that is jihad.

 

You confuse boycott with blockade. Your examples are all boycotts - every person made their own individual choice whether to write a letter, patronize the business, stand outside the business holding a sign. Nobody was threatened, the families of the workers at Disney and Target were not harassed, vendors and customers were not threatened with death or harassment.

In a boycott, every person makes their own choice and that choice is respected.

In a blockade, a group of people impose their decision on everyone else through force and intimidation. Gays blockade.

 

The death threats are unfortunate and unwarranted, but people on both sides of this issue are unreasonable.
When you make public statements you open yourself to public review. When you make statements on behest of an organization you open that facility to boycot.
Any business person knows this, it is a fairly basic principle of risk management - Do not get involved in hot button issues if you are not prepared to deal with the potential ramifications.

The bakery closed of their own accord, it was not "lost". You are not even aware of the specifics of the case.
The bakers have made over $300,000 profit after fines from the discrimination fiasco.
The amount, while large is simular to other discrimination penalties, was for violation of public accomidation ordinances, posting the homosexual couples address online targeting them for harassment, and failure to respond to inquiry.
I have never claimed anyone should be treated cruelty, there is no need to lie.

What would you have me to do to stop random anonymous claims made online and by phone? I have been against both the discrimination and the threats from day one. When a business opens they are required to follow the same rules as everyone else - there should be no special provisions. People that issue death threats reguardless of their ability to carry them out should be penalized.

You emotional responses are not rational

 

I asked you to identify how many people have died in this 'gay jihad' you claim is going on. You haven't been able to identify any.

As I pointed out- the reality is that Christians have for decades pushed for persecution and prosecution of persons for being gay. That is the reality- and that is real persecution- compared to a few isolated cases of individuals reporting business's for failing to comply with business laws.

Telling Christians that they have to follow the same business laws as everyone else- that is not 'jihad'.

But targeting Christians, going out your way to cause trouble for Christians, seeking extreme unusual punishment against Christians, driving people into hiding in fear for their lives, making people unemployable out of fear of the gay mob, that is jihad.

Every single thing you said applies far more to Christians seeking to prosecute gays than your own statement. "Going out of your way to cause trouble for Christians"- what about passing laws to cause trouble for gays? Done by Christians for decades. Seeking extreme unusual punishment against Christians- unusual- how- the 'punishment' for Christians is the same legal punishment that any business owner would face- while Christians pushed anti-sodomy laws that were specifically aimed at criminally prosecuting homosexuals.

Everything you said applies to Christian's who promoted bigotry towards homosexuals by factors of 10.

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You mistake homosexuals for the christostapo.

 

Threats of violence are always wrong- and examples are extremely rare.

What you conflate is a call for a boycott- with anonymous persons making threats of violence- not any organized call for violence- nor actual people blockading a business.

The call for the boycott against Chic Fil E was just the same the call for a boycott against Disney, and Target, and Starbucks etc, etc.

And yes- business's perceived as not supporting the anti-gay jihad strongly enough get threats also
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/05/florida-bakery-anti-gay-message_n_7007390.html
Days after the anti-gay pizzeria controversy rocked Indiana, former televangelist Joshua Feuerstein went after a Longwood, Florida, bakery for refusing to put the words "We do not support gay marriage" on a cake.

Feuerstein made the request himself, and when Cut The Cake owner Sharon Haller refused, she said threats started pouring in.

“He wanted us to put a hateful message on a cake, and I said, ‘We’re not gonna do that,’” Haller told Orlando news station WKMG Local 6, adding, "We started getting some hundreds of phone calls and making very nasty and negative gestures towards our business, towards us."

You just don't object to a boycott when it is against a business being boycotted for being too business friendly.


Sadly it is all too easy for people to make anonymous threats now- people who have helped illegal aliens have gotten death threats, gay politicians have gotten death threats- but no gay organization is out there telling people to threaten people who they disagree with.

 

Not sure. You can check the FBI hate crime statistics reports. (link)



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No, it does not matter why someone is gay.

 

I do not believe it is even theoretically possible to prove a person is "born gay" because it is impossible to determine social and interpersonal influences. People are born asexual - no sense of sexuality - so there is no way to know the sexuality of asexual newborns.

What possibly could be shown is that certain physical and personality traits may more lead towards a person being gay for all the billion complex personal and social interaction influences.

 

Jacob Robida- entered a bar, confirmed it was a gay bar and attacked people with a hatchet & gun wounding 3 in 2006

2006 San Diego Pride fest- 6 men beaten with a baseball bat to the point of needing facial reconstruction

Michael Sandy- run over and killed by 4 straight men who tricked him into a meeting online 2006

Andrew Anthos- 72 year old beaten to death with a pipe in Michigan 2007

Ryan Keith Skipper- stabbed to death in Florida in 2007

Ruby Ordenana- raped and strangled to death in CA in 2007

Roberto Duncanson- murder in NY for allegedly flirting with his killer 2007

Sean William Kennedy- beaten to death in SC 2007

Melvin Whistlehunt- burned to death in NC 2008

28 year old lesbian gang raped and killed by 4 men yelling homophobic remarks in CA 2008

Dee Dee Pearson shot to death in MO 2011

14 year old Kardin Ulysse beaten blind in school 2012

Mark Carson shot to death in NY 2013

Ahmed Said & Dwond Anderson-Young murdered execution style after leaving a gay bar in Seattle 2014

Taja DeJesus stabbed to death in CA 2015

Ron Lane- shot to death in 2015

Those were just a few I pulled from a long list of hate crimes related to sexuality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/histo...people_in_the_united_states#2000.e2.80.932009

Exactly. And there are laws in place to ensure equal treatment of LGBT people, because history has shown people don't do it voluntarily. Not in every state, but many. Oregon for example has anti discrimination laws that include LGBT people, which is why the famous cake bakers paid in their cake-denying lawsuit. They didn't follow the law.

 

I did that much earlier in this discussion. It lists LGBT people who were victims of crime - not just people who were victims of crime because they were LGBT. Notice the difference.

Of all the homicides that I saw in the list, the crime was included because the victim was LGBT not because their sexual orientation was the primary motivation of the person who victimized them. In many cases, the LGBT persons status was irrelevant to the criminal and crime.

I did not find any cases in the past few years (I did not look at all the reports) which a LGBT was selected and killed simply because they were LGBT.

 

Let's go with:

ONE, is too many. And if it happened because they were gay, there is an underlying issue we should ALL be concerned about.

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Something STUPID that was made-up.

 

If they were charged with a hate crime, law enforcement believes the crime was directed at the victim because of that distinction. Just because the victim is LGBT isn't enough for the crime to be included in those statistics.

Of course, that's just what the officers thought. You will never really know why someone did something. Even when the perpetrator claims he killed a person "just because he was gay" their motives are probably more complicated than even the perpetrator knows.



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Wikipedia is a terrible source. As another poster suggested (2 posters actually), I looked at the FBI hate crime reports. I will repeat my response to here:

Your list is the same. Were the people victimized because they were LGBT? No, it looks like they would have been victimized.

The one exception is Jacob Robida, who was mentally disturbed and went on a rampage which among his targets was a gay bar. Robida injured 4 in the gay bar, went home where he left a suicide note, kidnapped a heterosexual woman (killed her), and later killed a heterosexual cop. I'll agree this guy targeted gays because they were gay, so you have one case.

But you are a long, long way from demonstrating that LGBT are exceptionally targeted.

 

Go read the FBI reports. Some cases listed as "hate crimes" are instances in which a person was killed by a random crime, it was found the victim was LGBT, and the crime was elevated to a "hate crime". The criminal did not know the victim was LGBT.

"Hate Crime" is a political tool, and it spits in the face of the concept of the rule of law in which all people are treated equally before the law.

 

The bogeyman?

 

LGBT are targeted by religious hate groups, the government and individuals. The action may not be murder but they are actively meant to disparage homosexuals.

Just recently we were simply allowed to marry.

Right now there is a bill floating in congress to protect homosexuals from discrimination in employment and housing.

Then and only then will gay people be equal

 

Okay- which group has been targeted by Christian groups for laws specifically designed to criminalize their behavior?

That would be homosexuals- targeted by Christian legislators- and Christian activists as recently as 2 years ago- rejecting the repeal of anti-homosexual sodomy laws.

The Louisiana House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly — 27–67 — to retain a law banning “crimes against nature,” including oral sex and all forms of same-sex sexual contact. The law has been unenforceable for over ten years, since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas that laws criminalizing consensual private sexual behavior are unconstitutional. The 67 lawmakers who opposed the repeal thus violated their oath of office, in which they swore to support the Constitution of the United States.

Repeal of the unconstitutional law was opposed by the Louisiana Family Forum, a state affiliate of Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council. In a letter to lawmakers, the group argued that “Louisiana’s anti-sodomy statute is consistent with the values of Louisiana residents who consider this behavior to be dangerous, unhealthy, and immoral.” The Louisiana Family Forum also alleged that the law was essential to protect children from sodomy, even though several other laws account for such protections.

Yes- homosexuals have been exceptionally targeted- evidenced by the anti-sodomy(Homosexual only) laws still on the books in many states- all passed by majority Christian legislatures- with the specific intent of targeting homosexuals.

 

Clearly Wikipedia isn't the best source, but it's a fast way to get some examples. You can research individual cases on that list to better vette them if you think it's necessary. It was pretty open about which were obvious hate crimes, which weren't and which are accused hate crimes that law enforcement disagreed on. Some of these examples are clearly a hate crime though even if they're posted on wiki.

Two years ago there was a trans woman who hit on a man near Greeley, CO and he killed her. 100% confirmed it was a hate crime and I saw the news report with my own eyes on the local news. The point is, even if only 25% of my list is true it's obviously a problem.

 

Homosexual hate groups are targeting anyone, everyone and anything that refuses to affirm their sick, chosen sexual lifestyle. That is why homosexuals are trying to pass legalized persecution of dissenters under the Trojan Horse of "Anti-Discrimination." The Homosexual Agenda specifically calls on the gaystapo to vilify and bash anyone who refuses to go along 100% with homosexual politics and behaviors.

 

And are also imaginary.

 

"I've created a truly fascist organization". Eric Pollar, homosexual sex jew and co founder of the homosexualist hate group Act Up. He also publicly admitted that early homosexual community activists took their inspiration and tactics from Hitler's Mein Kampf:

The following is an excerpt from his 1992 letter to a homosexual militant publication called the Washington Blade titled, “Time to give up fascist tactics”:

This is very hard for me to write. It forces me to squarely confront my past actions and to accept responsibility for the damage I have had a part in causing. I sincerely apologize for my involvement in and my founding of the AIDS activist organization, ACT-UP D.C.. I have helped to create a truly fascist organization...The average Gay man or woman could not immediately relate to our subversive tactics, drawn largely from the voluminous Mein Kampf, which some of us studied as a working model (Washington Blade, January, 1992).

In his 1998 War on Heterosexuality, author Michael P. Wright, quotes AIDS “dissenter” Alex Russell on the fascist character of contemporary “gay” activism.

Many attributes of the HIV Homofascist Movement (or HIVism) resemble those of Fascism and the psychology of Freikorpsmen: an authoritarian personality; extreme emphasis on the masculine principle, male dominance and blood brotherhood; exclusive membership in an elite in-group; and the fetishization and aestheticization of suffering, self-sacrifice and death.

Freikorpsmen made war a way of life....Many HIV Blood Brothers see the war on AIDS as a way of death where the Freudian pleasure principle and the death drive become indistinguishable. The Swastika armband has now been replaced by the HIV positive tattoo and the red ribbon (Russell in Wright

Within a few years of its founding, ACT-UP spawned the more radical Queer Nation. Miller writes that Queer Nation’s “in your face” tactics antagonized some in the “gay” community. Randy Shilts [a prominent homosexual writer] called Queer Nationals “brownshirts” and “lavender fascists” (Miller:460). Queer Nation adopted highly militant rhetoric and openly threatened violence. Grant describes their tactics during an Oregon election campaign (see Introduction) in which voters considered a law to ban minority status based on homosexuality:

...flyers appeared on telephone poles warning people to vote against it. One showed the Christian ichthus fish being roasted on a stick over a fire. It read, YOU BURN US, WE BURN YOU...another said CIVIL RIGHTS or CIVIL WAR. Your choice for a limited time only...It also clarified what it meant by “civil war” by listing “QUEER KNIVES, QUEER GUNS, QUEER BULLETS, QUEER MISSLES, QUEER TANKS, QUEER TRENCHES, QUEER FIRE, QUEER WARFARE, QUEER PATRIOTS (Grant, 1993:104f).

One of us (Lively) was active in that campaign and personally witnessed stencils painted on sidewalks in the City of Portland which threatened “Queers Bash Back.” In the City of Eugene businesses that had supported the Oregon Citizens Alliance (which had sponsored the ballot initiative) had bricks, wrapped in swastika-embellished flyers, thrown through their windows. A Queer Nation spokesman in Eugene denied responsibility but defended the violence as justified. A separate organization which called itself “Bigot Busters” specialized in harassing and threatening petitioners seeking signatures to put the measure on the ballot. Petitions were ripped from circulators hands or doused with paint, activists blockaded petition tables, and several circulators were physically assaulted. Hundreds of false signatures were put on petitions in an effort to invalidate them. In every case “Bigot Busters” denied responsibility.

In classic Nazi style, the Oregon homosexual activists cast themselves as victims during this campaign of violence. A series of phony late-night cross-burnings were staged in the front yard of Azalea Cooley, a black, apparently wheelchair-bound lesbian in Portland. This highly publicized charade continued for six months and was blamed on a “climate of hate” created by OCA. On the eve of the election, however, police caught Cooley herself on video walking out of her own front door with a wooden cross and materials to burn it. She later confessed to all of the crimes (Oregonian, December 10, 1992).

 

I'm a lesbian and don't give a crap if you refuse to "go along with homosexual politics and behaviors." It's your life do what you want. However, I do not have to go along with your heterosexual politics an behaviors. It's my life and I'll do what I want.

 

You should really cite where you lifted this from - http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=248027

I'd like to ask why is it that certain types of people always look for the worst example of something and then apply it liberally to everyone else who has even the slightest connection, it has a name it's called generalization .. I wonder if I can indulge in the same and claim that the Westbro Baptists are indicative of ALL Christians.

 

The shoe fits.

 

That is a ridiculous answer. Homicide is always tragic, its a shame there are any murders, but to imply that just one murder requires some sort of national movement to reduce the murder rate to zero is pie-in-the-sky crap. Its like saying "if it only stops one murder then its worth it", its foolish and naïve.