Double standard on abortion and child support

I've noticed this double standard (and doubt that there are many feminists pointing it out).

People who believe that abortion should be a guaranteed right use the argument that when a woman consents to sex, she's not consenting to pregnancy.

However the argument I hear in favor of men paying child support is that "if they don't want to support a child they shouldn't have sex with a woman".

Therefore in the case of men, sex = unwritten consent to give birth and support a child (without any choice in the matter), however in the case of women, it does not. Interesting. To be more consistent, I'd think they should advocate that only men who've willingly signed their name on the child's birth certificate should be obligated to pay child support - that would be far more pro-choice.

 

This is a very old argument and just goes around in cycles.

 

Agreed - it should be equal responsibility in relation to prevention of pregnancy - but that is not the case on a societal basis as there are only a scant few methods of male contraception - and at least one of those is a hard sell for men

 

Reminds me of how a woman can get an abortion, but a man can't punch her in her stomach argument.

Woman have more power in this type of thing.

 

If I remember correctly Makkede, who was pro choice, thought that was hypocritical too. Speaking of which, has anyone spoken to her lately? It's been awhile since I've last seen her here.

 

I'm friends with her on Facebook and she's been doing well from what I've seen. She's still really focused on the martial arts stuff. =)

 

Really? That's neat. I know she was hoping to break a little from her shy exterior by taking karate and being forced to interact with other people. Best of luck to her.

 

It's only really a double standard if you consider pregnancy and birth (or abortion) is equivalent to paying some money every month.

To me, there is a clear way to look upon this whole issue. There should be an entire logical separation between pregnancy and child support. By default, both biological parents of a child have equal rights and responsibilities for the care and well-being of that child. A pregnant person has a entirely separate set of rights and responsibilities regarding their pregnancy and the foetus/child they're carrying. Note that gender is irrelevant as a raw matter of principle here.

You only get issues like the one you've brought up when these two things are conflated.

 

If such a system were created, it would have to involve informing the mother that you(as the father) don't plan on being involved with the child in an amount of time that would allow the woman to choose abortion and still be within the period of time before the various cut-off dates begin. Having the ability to be the sole decision maker when it comes to the outcome of her pregnancy is the small trade-off a woman gets since it's her body entirely the bears the burden and the aftereffects of being pregnant.

 

There really is no double standard at all, only the attempt to make one by pro-lifers.

No man has any obligation to a woman or the fetus during pregnancy, he has no obligation, legal or otherwise, to contribute to the sustaining of a pregnancy. It is not until after the birth, where there is now a legally recognized person that BOTH parents are required to contribute to the well being of the child .. for some strange reason a number of people seem to be under the misconception that it is only men who pay child support, while the reality is that it applies to both the woman and the man.

You also need to look at the financial argument from the view of government, while the woman is pregnant it doesn't cost the state a dime but as soon as there is a child the state becomes obligated to provide for that child IF there is a need, hence the government, for financial reasons, tries to ensure that the father of the born child contributes. I mean you could try to get a law passed where a man can revoke all parental rights, but that would mean a far higher contribution from the government and as such the tax payer.

 

"" WAHHHH! I am a man and life is so unfair!! Women have it so easy! THEY get to be pregnant and I don't ! NOT FAIR! I WANT an EQUAL share of :

(We have been culturally conditioned to accept some incredible and false ideas. But it is offensive to assert that pregnancy impacts men in any way equivalent to its impact on women; that fathers and mothers have comparable experiences or feelings in connection with pregnancy or their babies; that nonresident unwed fathers, based on DNA, ipso facto "should" have "rights;" that, from the standpoint of family laws or women's choices regarding abortion, pregnancy should be viewed as nothing more than an "inconvenience"; or that the riskiest "jobs" in this world all are performed by men. (Compare the percentages of women carrying the scars of pregnancy with the percentages of men who carry the scars of battle.)

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:
•exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
•altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
•nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
•heartburn and indigestion
•constipation
•weight gain
•dizziness and light-headedness
•bloating, swelling, fluid retention
•hemmorhoids
•abdominal cramps
•yeast infections
•congested, bloody nose
•acne and mild skin disorders
•skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
•mild to severe backache and strain
•increased headaches
•difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
•increased urination and incontinence
•bleeding gums
•pica
•breast pain and discharge
•swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
•difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
•inability to take regular medications
•shortness of breath
•higher blood pressure
•hair loss
•tendency to anemia
•curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
•infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
•extreme pain on delivery
•hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
•continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:
•stretch marks (worse in younger women)
•loose skin
•permanent weight gain or redistribution
•abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
•pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
•changes to breasts
•varicose veins
•scarring from episiotomy or c-section
•other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
•increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
•loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
•higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
•newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

Occasional complications and side effects:
•complications of episiotomy
•spousal/partner abuse
•hyperemesis gravidarum
•temporary and permanent injury to back
•severe scarring requiring later surgery
(especially after additional pregnancies)
•dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
•pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
•eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
•gestational diabetes
•placenta previa
•anemia (which can be life-threatening)
•thrombocytopenic purpura
•severe cramping
•embolism (blood clots)
•medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
•diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
•mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
•serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
•hormonal imbalance
•ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
•broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
•hemorrhage and
•numerous other complications of delivery
•refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
•aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
•severe post-partum depression and psychosis
•research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
•research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
•research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:
•peripartum cardiomyopathy
•cardiopulmonary arrest
•magnesium toxicity
•severe hypoxemia/acidosis
•massive embolism
•increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
•molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
(like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
•malignant arrhythmia
•circulatory collapse
•placental abruption
•obstetric fistula
More permanent side effects:
•future infertility
•permanent disability
•death. """"""""""""""""""""



"It's not FAIR that women got to be "less than" men for centuries. I want my efforts/creations/inventions/contributions throughout history to be ignored by society, too!

I hated having to vote when women got out of that horrible chore for centuries! NOT FAIR!

I wanted to be oppressed and degraded by others who were oppressed and degraded and SHOULD HAVE recognized oppression and degradation as not being right for ANYONE!


I want a painful expensive monthly disease, TOO!!!

Not fair that I can walk around confident that I probably, because of my sex, won't be raped or targeted for a crime .. NOT FAIR!

Not fair that I was hired because of my sex and not because of my abilities...what a DOUBLE STANDARD !

It's a double standard that my wages will always be higher than women's because I, being so superior to women, do NOT have the same child rearing responsibilities...DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!


WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WAHHHHHHHHHH I want EVERYTHING ! I want to have the FUN of pregnancy!!! Wahhhh.""""

I

 

Most of your evidence is based on Biology, not discrimination, and for the most part, your other evidence is not supported by reality.

 

My statements are dead on accurate but I hardly expected "you" to agree..... easier to whine about how unfair life is for you than think....

 

Kind of like how feminists complain about the wage gap when the wage gap is for the most part not a result of discrimination, but personal choice, eh?????

 

None of that's any worse than the health risks a man'd go through if he took an extra large crap, lol (that's probably more painful than most pregnancies) - most women are just more delicate and can't handle pain like men can. Most real men could go through any of that without breaking a sweat.

Men were nice enough to give women equal rights

You can have it dude, I don't want it. A single rep from a 15-lb weight is more painful than that nonsense, - not my fault that some whiny women are too delicate to even take a fraction of the pain that a man could while laughing all the while, lol

Tell that to a handsome young guy at a gay pride rally, lol

Women are more likely to be hired solely on their sex - there was a poster here who admitted back in the day he'd hire women over dudes since he had a shot at dating them - so unless the boss is a gay male that's not likely to happen.

No one forces them to get pregnant - they want to get paid as much as men, they need to work as much as men, lol

I think that pregnant women should have to pay men "beer support" - since they have the luxury of just sitting around the house all day collecting a welfare check while the men are out working, I think they should have to pay men a little extra money - so he can go out to a bar and have a beer with his buddies on occasion, lol

Now none of the above is all that serious - but it's more coherent than any of the melodramatic drivel I replied to, lol

 

...and I'm the one who's, 'whining,' about how life is, 'unfair,' now that's rich-LOL

 

That's right. Women have a birth control choice after sex. They always have and have always used it, too.

That's right, because men don't have any birth control choices after sex.

They should at least insist they use a condom and spermicidal jelly. At the moment, that's their only birth control option. ( if they want to become a father some in the future, that is)

Not because of the law or sexism, but because of the difficulty in preventing sperm production without creating horrible side effects, or even stopping the production of sperm permanently.

The male contraceptive pill is some way away, yet.

But whatver birth control method they may be offered in the future, their part in reproduction ends after ejaculating sperm into the vagina of a woman.

No it wouldn't.

Signing a piece of paper wont stop the child being born.

The man will be a father whether he likes it or not.

 

There cannot be "Child Support" unless there is a Child.

Having sex does not guarantee a pregnancy, and a pregnancy does not guarantee a child.

However...if a woman does become pregnant, it is up to her, and her alone to decided how she proceeds. If the male does not want the child to be born but she does...it is her choice and responsibility, and he should be allowed to "Opt Out" based on her decision. This can be done right now with a simple legal document.

 

That's right, but there's a chance there will be a child.

She doesn't just "opt out".

She doesn't just sign a piece of paper to have the embryo magically disappear.

She has an abortion which ends the pregnancy, and prevents a child being born.

Men can't do that. They have no reproductive choices after conception.

There's absolutely no way of getting round that.

Use a condom. .

 

I disagree, pregnancy and child support are two separate, distinctive issues and need to be treated as such.

It is an attempt to blur the lines between consent and responsibility and for me it is disingenuous to do so.

While it may be said that a woman has a responsibility to maintain a pregnancy through to birth that responsibility does not negate her consent in the matter. It could equally be justified in saying that a person has a responsibility to provide blood or an organ in order to save the life of a family member, but again that assumption of responsibility does not negate a persons right to refuse. I know of no person who advocates that a mother or father should be legally forced to provide any part of their body in order to save the life of their child and yet pro-lifers want exactly that to be imposed onto a pregnant woman.

A man has no enforcible responsibility to a pregnant woman or the fetus, that rests solely on the woman and as she is the only one who suffers the injuries incurred during a pregnancy then she can be the only one who makes the decision as to whether to consent to those injuries, once the birth has happened then it is an entirely different situation, we are no dealing with a separate person who is not imposing injury onto another and as such the state has a responsibility to ensure the well being of that person, this they do by either enforcing child support from BOTH parents or by supplying support themselves via welfare.

A man suffers no physical injuries during pregnancy and as such his consent to the pregnancy is moot as it does not directly effect his physical wellbeing .. only the woman suffers that.

 

We are much on the same page...but not entirely. There should not be an imposed penalty upon the male, if he has made it clear he does not wish to take part in the pregnancy and birth. The woman in this situation has the power to choose what she will do, the man should have this right as well.

If I choose to engage in an activity, any danger or responsibility in entails is entirely on me for making the decision...why is it different for her?

 

He can't have that right. It's impossible for men to be given a birth control choice after conception.

If a man doesn't want children, he has to make any choices before he has sex.

It's too late afterwards. Reproduction is no longer anything to do with them.

It isn't.. She has more choices open to her than men, that's all.

 

It would seem we men must avoid sexual intercourse according to you....and I suppose women should help us by refusing to have sex until it can be documented that the man is also consenting to having a child....just in case. Either that or we should all be sterilized before engaging in these "activities".

Sounds like great fun.

 

Use a condom and spermicidal jelly. Unfortunately, at the moment there's nothing else a man can do.

http://theweek.com/article/index/232186/a-male-birth-control-pill-that-doesnt-kill-sex-drive

It'll be a while yet, but something to look forward to.

 

Christians will simply protest against it when it comes along...regardless, people like sex and will continue enjoying it.

Unfortunately....men need to be extremely careful or pay the piper.
Women can simply pay for the abortion, or stay pregnant...we have no say whatsoever.