With the US moving the bulk of it's forces out of Europe to the Pacific, how should Europe change it's military to the new situation. Something that has never happened befor the Europeans are going to have to step up to the mark and work together, not only to defend themselves but also to project regional power, into places like North Africa, the western middle east and if needs be Arabia and Sub Saharan Africa. This thread is about should happen, not what some people like me would like to happen.
Nothing is going to happen. Europe doesn't have the stomach to secure its own self interests. They will continue to shave thier militaries down to a ripened husk while providing for the "needs"(wants and demands) of an increasingly belligerent, demanding and surly population and they will eventually within a century fade into obscurity as just another muslim dominated backwater. Thier great cathedrals will be torn down or converted to mosques and all the history that has existed and been created there will fade into a new dark age.
I would love to say you're wrong... But im beginning to think this way too The left has destroyed Europe... Dont let it happen in America
Great story. However, your very wrong. In the UK, our military changes as threats change. We keep our technological sovereignty in order to respond relatively quickly to possible future conventional threats, with the support of any number of our allies. Our technological advances and research are very strategic, if not widely discussed. I can give examples if need be. Ultimately, the EU has nukes and (arguably, in either direction) the 2nd strongest military in the World. The union and its members has very strong and diverse alliances. Threats to the EU from other nations in the future are insignificant.
Depends which direction the Eu takes. Whether it follows america to embrace empire and creates a unified military for adventoures around the world. Or which i hope, maintains sanity and keeps the military compact.
The problem is that the EU has a severely limited ability to project power. Outside of Europe, and a few hundred miles from its borders, its close to useless. Also, people just assume that European militaries can cooperate seamlessly. The EU isn't one integrated military, its dozens of them, all with different equipment, languages, culture, doctrine, and political leadership. The complications this brings to the table cannot be stressed enough.
Americans on this forum are very negative to europe. A combined EU military will be a challenge and one that will take time. Europeans wiill work together to make it a reality.
What do you mean, limited ability to project power? I assume you mean we don't have an over-the-top military? Just because we don't have excess, doesn't mean we don't have enough. We have enough to go into conventional war with any nation with whom conventional war would be considered suitable or necessary... and nukes to deter those with whom war would not be suitable. That's power. Its 2011.... wars will never be the same. MAD is what the world is about now. that's how the cold war worked "Power" is less about military clout and more about economical and political ability. Today, we reduced Iran's oil sales by 20%, and its GDP by 10%... and not a single military operation took place. In response, Iran can do very little about it.... and if they did, we have the tools to make them change their attitudes pretty quickly.
By power projection I mean the ability to move a significant number of troops and equipment to far off places to protect your interests. Europe lacks that, they couldn't even pull off Libya without U.S. logistic, C&C, and intelligence assets. MAD hasn't reduced the number of wars. In fact, in some ways, nuclear weapons have increased the importance of conventional weapons. Warfare in the next few decades will be smaller lower intensity conflicts in far off places. Right now Europe lacks the ability to get assets in place to these far off places and conduct wars. It is certainly powerful in Europe, but countries in Asia, parts of Africa, and South America can snub their noses at European interests without much fear (provided they don't provoke the ire of the U.S. also). Right now its two U.S. carrier groups sitting in the straits thats keeping Iran in "line." Operation Praying Mantis showed Iran what would happen if they tried to shut down the straits. Europe most definitely lacks the military capability to intervene on the ground in Iran. It also lacks the bombers and strike aircraft needed to penetrate Iranian air defenses without significant losses. Its no conincidence that U.S. air assets have done the lionshares in destroying anti-air assets in NATO/European conflicts in the last 25 years.
We could have, we just didn't. Why do Americans think they have the only western ability in Intelligence and logistics?! Are you that ignorant? MAD hasn't reduced the number of wars. In fact, in some ways, nuclear weapons have increased the importance of conventional weapons. Warfare in the next few decades will be smaller lower intensity conflicts in far off places. Right now Europe lacks the ability to get assets in place to these far off places and conduct wars. It is certainly powerful in Europe, but countries in Asia, parts of Africa, and South America can snub their noses at European interests without much fear (provided they don't provoke the ire of the U.S. also). There have been no wars since ww2 between great powers, due to MAD. There never will be another between great powers, without nukes being involved... making a huge military somewhat worthless. Economic power is the name of the game. The EU has a greater economy than the US. Also, UK/EU are able to employ troops elsewhere, for smaller conflicts. Ok. Considering it has 1/10th of the people, 1/10th of the money and spends a smaller %age of GDP on defence, I think the UK is contributing far more to that effort. If you say so... I will get to this another time.
http://patdollard.com/2011/06/gates-blasts-nato-says-u-s-involvement-may-be-ending-its-future-dim/ http://www.economist.com/node/21528248 When was the last time Britain/France/Germany etc. carried out combat operations far from shore without any U.S. help? Even the Falkands was a tiny conflict that strained the British Navy. The EU is a loose alliance of nations....while technically the sum of its parts (with more than 500 million people) have a slightly greater gross GDP, the political, economic, and cultural fractures in the organization give it nothing like the control a single country has. Trying to pretend that the EU is a single solidified nation doesn't make it so. The recent debt problems have shown just how divided the region is. Britain's tiny taskforce, while competent and dedicated, isn't even remotely close to the power that two U.S. carrier groups bring to the region. Iran isn't concerned with a minesweeper and a few frigates when there's 150 strike aircraft sitting offshore.
The more i read this forum i continue to read american posters disrespect for europe. Why is this? Massive iinferiroity complex when europe is concerned or you simply hate europeans. Now this is a interesting subject that i hope wont be dragged into the nationalistic flame wars. Up your game americans. I have had very enlightening talks with usa service men who were stationed in europe on other forums. They were not chidlishly running europe down but intelligent on what it is and could be.
It is not our fault that you claim "Europe" as one entity when it is not at all one entity. Greece has you people by the short and curlies and we see Democracy fading in favor of a gross tyrannical technocracy in place in Brussels. We see surly Muslim populations using their united Ummah loyalties to exact upon Europeans cultural and economic concessions far outweighing their actual numbers. In short, we just see Europe committing cultural and economic suicide right before our eyes and are pointing out the facts. Much of Europe drools for the day when America will finally decline and break up like the Soviet Union because much of Europe was trained under anti-American communist doctrines during the cold war and that doesn't just go away. So we no longer see Europe as "allies" but competitors.
Americans like you ar the problem, who want to fight for no reason. So you are angry, spit venom at europeans even on a topic regarding future military use. Usa is eroding in self hate. which is a shame.
The EU does not have a military. No more then the UN or OAS has a military. What it has is nations with a military, and trying to get them to work together is like hearding cats. Look at the recent operations in North Africa. If they are so powerfull, why did they need the US to come in and help out? If war ever did come to Europe again, you will see the exact same thing that has happened historically for over 2,000 years. One group of nations will support the beligerant, another group will help defend the nation attacked, and others will bury their heads in the sand, and hope they can remain neutral. That is historically how Europe reacts to threats. And have fun proving this wrong. The closest that Europe has to a uniform defense treaty or organization is the European Defence Agency. And in this, any nation can choose to opt-out of the agreement at any time. And in 2010, the UK was considering backing out of the agreement. Hot the Under-Secretary of State decided to continue membership for another 2 years, then review their status at that time. That is this year. So the closest thing the EU has to a Defense Treaty may end up without UK after this year. So much for solidarity. A defense treaty where members may choose to opt-out at any time? That is not a defense treaty, that is a joke. I have more respect for the League of Nations then I do for that organization.
I think as US forces draw down NATO will change their command structure accordingly. I don't look for NATO to even attempt building an invasion force, nor do I think it's necessary. The US military has been so big for so long that we've forgotten what it's like to rely on diplomacy and economics instead of military power to influence other nations. That doesn't mean the EU won't use surgical strikes if necessary but there are other means of dealing with world issues besides invasion.
Certainly don't speak for all Americans but I myself don't have any hate towards Europeans. Also no inferiority complex either. I don't see any reason Europe should spend trillions to project power to remote places either If it was up to me the USA would do a lot less of this as well.
