God created sin - Change my mind

So you are saying that if atheists are correct, right and wrong still exist, and God doesn't determine what is right or wrong?

 

I mean he had already downloaded one document to a tablet from the cloud, no reason why he couldn't do it again.

 

That would be pretty much anyone who claims that what they believe is the absolute truth and all others are wrong.

To a point I agree with you, in that certain "morals" seem to be rather universal, at least at base level. It's the details where it starts getting murky. Why is it not murder when we use the death penalty? Some say it is, and others that it is not. Why was it not murder when Saul attacked the Amalekites and slaughtered everyone down to the women and children. Well all but the king and his flocks, but you get the point. When is theft not theft? If we call it taxes does it suddenly not become theft? While we can see where pretty much all societies have similar laws against whatever, they don't all treat it the same.

 

Well clearly the absolute truth is that the earth revolves around the sun, and the Roman Catholic Church was wrong. As for the Amalekites, that was 3500 years ago. So you'd have ask God and Joshua about that. For me, if God ordered it, then it was right because I know that God lives and is just.

 

I don't know. All I know is that God is real and divine. I also know for myself that true life isn't in myself or in my life alone, but in God. The difference between life in oneself and life in God is like the difference between a dream which you perceive as life while you're asleep, and then waking up in the morning and realizing your real life with all its richness in spirit, liberty, and light in comparison to the darkness and confusion of a dream.

 

People can, for the love of evil, become corrupt and blot out conscience. At that point, it could be any manner of wickedness that motivates them. This seems self evident to me.

 

That would be Samuel, not Joshua. Further, I doubt that He actually ordered that. Such is not the actions of a loving God. But neither is a lot of things claimed by His followers.

 

Not to me. These people, and many other ancient peoples I could mention, were brought up to accept many practices that are to us not acceptable. It's not a matter of being born with a conscience, this comes from childhood and growing up.
The concept of “conscience", as commonly used in its moral sense, is the inherent ability of every healthy human being to perceive what is right and what is wrong and, on the strength of this perception, to control, monitor, evaluate and execute their actions [25]. Such values as right or wrong, good or evil, just or unjust, and fair or unfair have existed throughout human history but are also shaped by an individual’s cultural, political and economic environment . National Library of Medicine

 

Why would a loving God give us the miracle of life with a death sentence attached? If there is no God, do we affix this cruelty to life itself or maybe the universe?

 

There is no god. And why is death cruel? It is simply a part of nature.

 

Then what's the beef regarding the Amalekites. Or is it that only Jews should be killed. To say there is no God is to say wrongly. Unless you know everything, you can't say with confidence that there is no God. The best you can say is that you don't know of a God. Reason would hold out the possibility that God is real. And if it is possible, then you can't say there is no God. I personally know by the intercession of his spirit which awakened me to a remembrance of God, that he lives. Men can banty about talk of God, imagining a glorious being, believing and driven to zest at the concept of their own imaginings and the promises of the written word. But one cannot remember a divine personage which one never knew once brought to recollection, independent of all earthly influence.

 

Amalekites? What has a mythical story and mythical tribe got to do with it. Nowhere, except in the Bible or related to the Bible are the Amalekites actually known. Reason does not hold out there's the possibility of a god unless you want to believe in one. 13 billion years to create a chaotic universe. 4 bn years to create a chaotic earth and another 3 bn+ years before a creature who would develop into man came into being. If there was a god he would be the god of chaos.
You know well my view of your 'experience'.

 

Twenty billion years? Yeah right...like you were there?! Methuselah has nothing on you. Your medical diagnosis of my revelation has no basis in science. It was 46 years ago. And never in my life have I suffered any physical or mental effects or consulted a doctor for a tumor, cancer, embolism, or psychological break. As for wanting to believe, Gods spirit addressed two of my queries, one verbal and a follow up in thought. But he also answered and solved a third question or issue which I kept to myself and hadn't asked or even been able to formulate yet. So he knew my secrets and things unsaid. And at the time I had no religion or belief one way or another. Life was my religion, you might say.

 

Twenty billion years? Don't you understand anything. 13 bn for the universe. 9 bn years later for the earth. 3 bn years later for mans early ancestors.
You don't need a diagnosis from any doctor for your 'experience'. You just need to understand the workings of the brain. Pshychology. Psychiatry. will give you some answers. Even then you wouldn't accept them.

 

The 10 commandments etc, however, are just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham etal and their ancestors. Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Cainan to kill his brother Abel (Gen 4:15-16), or for Noah's father to kill a young bloke (Gen 4:23-24), and why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham and Noah to have sex with their sisters, or for Lot to sexually assault his daughters.

And have you ever seen a god, like Abraham did when they shared a non-kosher meal together and had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah before the god walked down to count them himself, since that particular god was neither an omniscient or omnipresent type of god - or so the story goes (Gen 18:1-33)?

 

I have no yearning for other than the truth and God of which I am acquainted. Having a perfect Father or God isn't odd or crazy relative to this life. Neither is his perfection when perfection is what we seek from ourselves and all that we do. Likewise Jesus Christs gospel of repentance which is preparatory to our review and judgment. With that in mind, what is crazy is to think otherwise. Not to mention the absurd notion that we come from apes and will live and die for naught. sheesh

 

Doesn't change the unequivocal fact that the universe is billions of years old, given that there are ~2 trillion visible galaxies and the speed of light is ~300,000 km/sec.

And what do apes live and die for, given that we share over 98% of our DNA with chimps, including the same dysfunctional gene for Vitamin C synthesis?
https://knowyourdna.com/human-and-chimpanzee-dna/

And did Cainan repent for killing his brother Abel, given that wasn't a sin, since his god even protected him from retribution when he went to live in Nod and shacked up with a Nod girl (Genesis 4)?

 

And is it right and just to command the abortions of pregnant adulteresses, or is that just for the property rights of men and to ensure legitimate lines of descent and inheritance (Leviticus 20:10 Numbers 5:20-26)?

 

Oh please. No-one is seeking perfection. People seek to do the best they can, however imperfect that may be. And despite all you say about your 'experience' you still view mans written word - the written gospels with 'miracles' , the dead rising and walking - as authorative.
With that in your mind!!
You use science quite happily every day of your life because it suits you. That which doesn't you reject. We came from the animal world over a long time. That's quite clear if you look at the various stages of which we have evidence. Unfortunately for you you can't produce evidence of Adam and Eve.

 

I don't understand the point of your posts. You are referring to records pertaining to peoples who lived three thousand to six thousand years ago. But yes, if it is directed by God, then it is just and true and appropriate to the people and circumstance of the time. Are you certain of the accuracy of your interpretation and understanding of scripture? Are you saying that it is all made up, that there is no God, or that God is faulted? If you are trying to turn me away from God or prevent me, then you are too late. I am already converted. If you are mocking me, then mock away. Aren't you just a monkey according to your beliefs? Why pretend to be a man and lecture me. In my knowing that God lives, then what heed should I give you. If you live and die for nothing but to live and die, then what hope can you possibly extend to me more than life in God. Do you presume to save me from vanity when there is nothing more vain than to live and die for nothing which is your own philosophy. Do you think that projecting your philosophy on my testimony, changes its meaning to suggest that it is vain to trust in a non existent God. Have you considered that the God in whom I trust is the living God, and that I possess the ability to discern reality from fantasy. Can you not afford me that privilege, or are you too steeped in your own stew to see.

 

Or Vice versa?

 

Yes I use practical science, not speculative science regarding the origin of man. I was born, not evolved. I have a birth certificate as proof. And I know that God lives. It isn't what I believe, study, conclude, reason, surmise, imagine, read, hear, fantasize, sought or wanted to know. It is what it is, or God is that he is, just as you and I are that we are. I'm not steeped in the tradition of any camp, and am not taught. I stand alone and declare what I know. Would you prefer I lie or parrot the preferred religious jingo? I don't speak the words of man or myself. I speak what God has shown me, which is that he lives.

Contrarily, you do speak what you have concluded, surmised, reasoned, believed, studied, imagined, read, heard, and have been taught by others. You declare men and yourself. You trust in the arm of flesh. So between us, who is most likely to be deceived and committed to vanity and ultimately, failure?

I have all that you have at my disposal. Our difference is that I don't put my trust in the transitory. And I do that because I know of a better thing in owing to the charity of God by the visitation of his pure and holy spirit. He is holy, I am not. He is exalted, I am fallen. I know this because he came to my temple and then left me to myself. Were I maddened, I couldn't make this distinction. Nor could I know humility at the prospect.

 

Why would a god change it's mind about the laws, or did the people create their god to reinforce their laws which they created?

 

And have you ever seen or heard or felt your god, and how did you know that your god is a male when he came to your temple and left you to yourself?

 

Who says he changed his mind. Maybe it was a matter of growth in truth, with all of it to the same end.