I’m curious about who still practices their faith.

Christianity thrives under persecution, otherwise it wouldn't exist. It grew under the pagan Roman emperors, so that by the time Saint Constantine legalized it in the 4th century, the population was predominantly Christian.

More recently, there has been a genocide of Christians - mostly in Syria. The deaths averaged about 300 a day, and yet someone said Christianity was growing. I don't doubt it. I know that on the day we commemorate Saint George, 300 thousand Muslims in Turkey visited his shrine.

We're not dead yet!

 

The Church of Latter Day Saints is so far from Christianity. that it can't even be called a heresy.

 

Paul said that believers are supposed to judge fellow believers and kick the bad ones to the curb.

 

Interesting! What Paul was that? We have so many in the world.

 

One could say the same about Fundamentalist Evangelicals and Pentecostals who divine God's word via "Speaking in Tongues".

 

This is an interesting claim. I was aware there was a fair number of Christians but not sure they were the majority - never mind "predominantly" which suggests more than a majority.

It was definitely a growing movement though - especially among the lower class.

 

As we are heading into a worldwide recession or depression, we can expect an explosion of faith.

That’s the usual pattern.

 

Joseph Smith took it a bit further by grifting, setting up an illegal bank in Ohio and running away when the feds came and talked 34 women into marrying him some of whom were already married.

Then Brigham comes along snd says Blacks deserve to be slaves cause God cursed them with Black skin.

Then a bunch of Mormons kill a bunch of settlers in the Mountain Meadow Massacre and to this day will not take responsibility for it for fear of liability I guess.

I look at Mormonism as a multi national corporation and not even a faith.

 

Somewhat more cultlish I agree.

 

I've met some really great folks that have their roots in the Mormon church. I work in Salt Lake a few times a year, and I just love seeing those big families.

They strike me as more a Works thing than a Faith thing, so, I would imagine that might be a tough system to spend a lifetime in, but, culturally, they seem to fit pretty well with Evangelical Christianity.

 

Haven't been back to my Zen center in a long time. I guess I sort of practice with my pagan friends now -- bonfire celebrations, handfastings, etc.

 

Well, to be fair, the Christians of that period certainly had elements that were pretty racist, and the Mormons would say that bigamy was adopted because of all the men that were killed in the persecution of Mormons, and humans, throughout their history have resorted to polygamy during times of existential crisis.

Today the Church headquartered in Salt Lake is as dead set against plural marriage as anyone else is.

 

Polygamy ended when it became clear that Utah found it couldn’t become a state and practice it.
Mormons tend to be nice people and they are very efficient as a social service agency but the church is run like a multi national corporation and the money is the bottom line. They’ve paid hush money to people who had damaging information. They covered up the Mountain Meadows Massacre. To this day they won’t take responsibility for fear of litigation from the descendants. Brigham Young hated Blacks and the Mormons kept them out of the priesthood until 1978 when they began to be worried about losing tax exempt status and Joseph Smith was a lifelong con man. But I will admit that today they do more good than harm.

 

Haven't you ever read your favorite religious fairy tale?

Read 1 Corinthians chapter 5, paying special attention to verses 9-13. = https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1corinthians5&version=TLB;ERV;NKJV;MSG;NLT

 

My New Testament is in the original Greek. I don't know interpretations or variations.

Christianity must have been the majority in much of the Empire, or Saint Constantine wouldn't have been able to declare it the State religion. I know that during the time of Christ, half the cities in Palestine were Greek colonies from the time of Alexander, so the concept of one God was not alien to them.

Also Saint Paul in Greece and Asia Minor spoke to the gentiles in Jewish temples, so by the time of Saint Constantine, Christianity had to be quite common in the Empire - or at least in most areas if not all, because there was at least one pagan emperor that came after Constantine.

The problem Constantine had were the Christian heresies - and there were quite a few. So in 325 he called an Ecumenical Council at Nicaea to establish doctrine, and invited 1,800 bishops. They didn't all come of course, travel was difficult but there had to be a consensus in order for it to be the work of the Holy Spirit. That's probably when Saint Nicholas punched the heretic Arius, but I'm not sure.

Anyway two years ago, my family attended a wedding in a Church built by Saint Constantine on the island of Paros. My daughter said it was magnificent. Constantine did it as a favor to his mother, who made a vow that if she found the true Cross in Jerusalem she would build a church there. Here's some pictures of it.

 

Not sure that our Data is that good from the time period. My understanding was that the soldier class had a large number of Christians - large enough to be a movement - Empire is divided remember - Rome and Constantinople.

The noble Class are Pagan - by en large .. in far away places like England you find both Christian and - "Mithra" Churches - an offshoot of Sol - the Sun God - also having a dying servant - and some other ritual and litergical similarities - so these were not completely incompatible. Some of the really old Churches were built on top of these old Churches - and they have unearthed the remnants in the basements...

For centuries - early Christian reliefs depicted Jesus with the Sun God Halo - and Sun Worship ceremonies went on for a long time on conjunction with Christian Churches. - Keep in mind the what meant "Christian" at that time - was a completely different thing. Constantine had yet to crown a winner in the battle for Christs Divinity - a war that had been waging hard for 300 years and had more factions than you can shake a stick at.

Remember that it was the Arian Christians that Ended the Western Roman Empire round 450 AD. Then you have the Orthodox - Gnostic and Gnostic related sects - and whole spectrum of fusions - some incorporating religious ideas from the past - not all of which were bad... but that is another story.

Constantine stepped in - unified the army under Christianity - claiming some "Vision" - Gets the Christians to fight - defeats Maxentius -
He then declares Christianity to be the new State Religion - and Puts himself up as "Pontifex Maximus" - still depicting himself as the Sun God.

but that did not happen until 10 years later - The wall is full of pagan imagery - but nary a Christian symbol - which puts in to question of the two accounts we have from Esebius - that the story may have been a later invention hyperbolized - while at the time not a big deal.

In any case - Constantine wanted to unify the Empire under one Religion - As is what smart Emperors do - Persia being one example - stories of which the literate Emperors of the day knew well.

You say "heresies" - I say there were many differing perspectives - all over the map - as that was the case. Christianity was highly diverse - doctrine not yet codified. The Trinity doctrine was not even stated till round 200 AD - by Tertullian - and at the time it was declared heresy by many. If Pope Dyonisius is doing it - a whole lot of others are as well.

Putting it mildly - it was a mess - the question of Christs divinity and the inherent contradiction between "Monotheism" and calling Jesus "GOD" aka "The Father" was not kosher to a whole lot of Christians.

Constantine solved the problem - with a word "Homoousios" - One Substance - from whom all things are made.
Eusebius refused to sign off and was exiled for a short time prior to coming to his senses and recanting. Why not stay on the Emperor's good side - and these two were obviously close.

and there you have it.

As soon as Constantine died Rome reverted back to Pagan State Religion - could have been a very short run for Christianity having power.

 

The Greeks were highly educated and wrote down everything. Whether what they wrote would fit into the narrow scope of the Protestant world and be accepted, was another matter. It was Constantine that moved Rome to the Bosporus. The story goes that when he was outlining the city, someone said: "Isn't the city big enough?" And Constantine replied: "I will stop when the angel in front of me stops."

That's doubtful because the Romans would have been the upper class, and more than likely they were Christians. I found that throughout history, most of the Saints who sacrificed everything for God, came from the nobility - which makes me wonder if spirituality might be an inherent trait.

Jesus is always depicted on icons with a Halo as are all the Saints, so it has nothing to do with a sun god. I read that when righteous people are calumniated a lot, their faces start to glow. Maybe that's what the halos represent.

The Muslims claim that Spain belongs to them because they are the Arians.

Everything can start off as nothing in the beginning, and then grow into something formidable. This is why the Church was always so hard on heretics. Were they right? I don't know!

The Greeks and Romans didn't have a Sun God, they had 12 gods, and emperors didn't follow gods, they made themselves gods - especially when their heads outgrew their brains. As for the vision, 'en touto nika', I'm sure Constantine saw it, in the same way I'm sure he was following an angel when he was outlining Constantinople.

I have to laugh at historians, who try to contribute all kinds of absurd and far fetched reasons as to why Constantine would move Rome to the city of Byzantium on the Bosporus.

As for the vision: 'En touto nika'? It became the Byzantine flag, and don't knock it. It's the only empire that survived for a thousand years.

​

Saint Constantine's mother was Saint Helene, and she was a devout Christian. That's why Constantine became a Christian, and also why he stopped the persecution of Christians.

It wasn't Constantine, he was a soldier not a saint - yet! The Holy Spirit solved it through a consensus of all the bishops at the First Ecumenical Council.

Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets. In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen.

​

 

Not much to say Jeanette - other than you put up a bunch of information - but did not really address the points I brought up.
Your claim that the Nobility were not Pagan - which implies they were Christian - is simply not true - you are just throwing stuff out hoping something sticks. Why on earth would Roman Nobility be Christian ? sans a few heretics prior to Constantine making Christianity the official religion.

Jesus being depicted with Halo - at least in the early days - had a whole lot to do with Sol Inviticus
You completely ignored the times - and the description I gave you of the times - as I have studied these things in quite some detail..

your comments on Muslims are completely irrelevant - and posting the creed - word "Substance" has been changed to "essense" - essentially the same thing - This must be Orthodox is it not ? When I was baptized into Orthodox to get married I noticed that the word was different "essense" sounds about right - but what was the point ?

We know Constantine's mommy was a Christian Convert - but where you are completely wrong - is claiming that Constantine did not insert the word "Homoousois" into the creed -- translated as "Substance" and/or "Essence" in English translations.

I have done my homework - you have not.

 

Read and study Scripture daily, and still fall short, still a sinner. The church is my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, and Christ is the cornerstone of the Church. I see and worship with them, in a building, at least once a week.

 

The reason I wrote that the Romans in Britain were probably Christian has to do with Saint Patrick. He was one of the first Saints to Christianize Ireland, and he came from a noble Roman family in Britain in the 4th century. That would be about the time of Saint Constantine. Also he was not the first Saint in Ireland. There were others before him, so I assume they too were probably Romans from Britain.

"...The introduction of Christianity to Ireland dates to sometime before the 5th century, presumably in interactions with Roman Britain. Christian worship had reached pagan Ireland around 400 AD. It is often misstated that St. Patrick brought the faith to Ireland, since it was already present on the island before Patrick arrived..."
​

Christianity requires an individual conversion and is never imposed on people. The pagans converted because of the sacrifices and miracles of the Apostles and the Saints that came after them. To the Protestants the stories of miracles and martyrdoms in the first centuries are so many and so repetitive that they seemed unbelievable to the Protestants - which is understandable.

I felt that way too when reading about the first Saints and Martyrs, but they do cover hundreds of years and I noticed that the Saints I know of do have similar experiences and are given similar charisms from God - so of course they would be repetitive.

It's unfortunate that today we have no 'approved' historical writings from the first years, because of Protestant revisionism and their oppositional theology towards the Latin Church. This leave gaps in history, which are filled by contemporary historians, who give their own interpretation of the era based on their own beliefs - rightly or wrongly.

I never even realized that Sol Inviticus existed, so I apologize. That Jesus would be depicted with a similar halo is understandable though, since Christianity was being adapted into a Greek world. It means nothing. There are a lot of pagan symbols and customs in the Christian world. This is what I found about Sol Invictus in Wikipedia.

"... Statuettes of Sol Invictus, carried by the standard-bearers, appear in three places in reliefs on the Arch of Constantine. Constantine's official coinage continues to bear images of Sol until 325/6..."​

Yet Saint Constantine called for the First Ecumenical Council in 323, which means he was a Christian.

"...Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the Sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest..."
​

Sunday was the Christian day of rest, so it could have been Saint Constantine's way of adjusting a pagan world to Christianity. Better yet! It was probably the Holy Spirit working through Constantine to adjust the Empire to Christianity.

"...On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost..."​

Doctrines have to be a movement of the Holy Spirit, and the only way that can be determined is through a consensus of all the bishops. Did Saint Constantine suggest for it to be included? I don't know, but I do know that all the bishops had to consent to it.

As for the word homoousios, I do know some Greek, (very limited believe me). Since I noticed that nouns do not really exist, and that all words with the exception of foreign ones, are formed by changing the verb endings, a correct translation of homoousios would be 'united in one essence', or 'united as one substance'. I like essence better.

Anyway I'm just guessing here, I'm not an expert.

 

I was raised Catholic but attended Lutheran school for the last two years of elementary school. My mother transitioned to a non-denominational Christian church during our high school years. I attended a few other Christian denominational churches while in college, but do not attend any type of church or religious services now. I still have to participate in the funeral services our entire family chooses but, outside that, I don't practice anything other than the "Golden Rule". ;-0

 

Giftedone - I mentioned Muslims in relation to Arianism, to show how heresies can develop and change over time. Did Arianism turn into Islam - or did the Arians become Muslims? I don't know, but the Arab Muslims in places like Jordan believe so, and because of it they assume Spain is rightfully a part of Islam.

 

I think that anything that was a former possession of Islam is considered a rogue state. Spain qualifies and Israel belongs to Islam by their reckoning. And now they see all of Western Europe as being theirs very soon. Islam is largely built on military precepts in my opinion. Occupy territory and then look for more.

 

Not much Greek required for "homoousios" - this is the word that gave us the Trinity.

So lets keep in mind at the time - "Trinity" was the most controversial topic among the wide variety of various Christian sects - and I am not talking the non mainstream ones. The early Church Fathers were Subordinatists - believed Jesus was Subordinate to the Father - an idea heretical to what came later.

Folks make more of this than they should thought - one's foundation should not be based on the bickering of old men with beards - over a concept that did not exist withing Christianity for at least the first 200 years.

Yes there were various ideas - some related to the Trinity - it was no secret to the Church Fathers that deification of Jesus was problematic as it contradicts Strict Monotheism.

In the Thread "Buddha Speaks" I ask the question - If the Truth came from a source other than Jesus/ "The Bible" - would God be offended.

But this is a big digression. The Historical Question we are after is now many Christians there were during Constantine. Clearly there were quite a few especially among the lower classes - Soldiers in particular as Constantine was interested in winning war - a war against Rome.

Not among the Nobility and Aristocracy though. These carried on the Traditions of the State Religion - which was not Christianity as this is as this is prior to 325 Nicene - prior to Christianity being made the State Religion.

Constantine was a devotee to Sol - we have coinage depicting this. What Constantine introduced as "Christianity" is not something we would recognize today - as head of State he had to appease not just the Christians but he Sol faction - which was huge - being the State religion of the day.

Constantine then raised himself to Pontifex Maximus - emissary between man and God - essentially usurping the Position of Jesus - or at least sharing it - but Jesus was not around anymore to give us God's word - so Constantine assumed that position - as was done by other Caesar's before him - and a position later taken up by the Popes.

 

`

Islam is a political entity as well as a religious faith. Political triumph reflects the triumph of Islam over other faiths since to them, Mohamed is seen as having succeeded Christ. And yet, how can Mohamed be seen as Christ's successor, when Mohamed didn't give us any revelation of God above the one Christ gave us? Rather Mohamed went backwards to a lesser revelation, and then took a wrong turn somewhere.

Because of the Islamic mentality, the situation in Greece is very precarious. War with Turkey is now seen as inevitable since it's something wanted by both Erdogan and his opposition. To fully understand the Turkish mind and how they spin things, Erdogan's spokesman said to CNN Turk, after being asked about turning the ancient church of Aghia Sophia into a mosque:

"... modern Greeks have nothing to do with the ancient Greeks or the Byzantine Greeks and that they are Turks that converted from Islam - therefore they have no connection with the Church of Aghia Sophia."​

Funny the way he disregards the fact that any conversion from Islam to Christianity is a death penalty.