I am an abortion consequentialist, and if you're smart, you are too

Ergo it has a potential to turn into a baby in the future (but is not yet).

I spoke about embryos, not zygotes.

So what is moral is based on simple mob rule? In islamic countries, killing adulterers is considered moral. Is it right?

And why should "traditional morality" be the right one?
Besides, pro-life position is not widely accepted, if we want to argue with mob rule. Most people want abortion to be legal in the first trimester.

 

You use the word 'potential' to try to get away with saying a single sperm or an unfertilized egg has the same outcome as a zygote which is completely untrue.

So you personally think that abortion, done for contraceptive convenience, is 100% moral?

In America killing embryos is based on 'simple mob rule' too, AND backed by tax dollars which runs counter to a large segment of We The People. SCOTUS did decide that a woman has the right to the privacy of her own body but did not mandate State sanctioned abortions like we have now with PP.

Most traditions are in place because they promote the health and welfare of a society and are considered the right or moral road to travel. Liberals (progressives) like to point to a few examples where tradition seems to run counter to that or try to twist history to make it seem like traditions are bad so they can denigrate those traditions that are inconvenient to their hedonistic lifestyles which has the effect of lowering societal moral values. So-called 'sex-education' of our minor children by the State is an example of some progressives wanting to sexualize young children apparently for easier sexual access.

But you just decried 'mob rule'....Are you then against abortion?

 

Only an idiot would not!

 

A baby is not a fully formed adult, but is still a human being. Same with a fetus.

Both are human beings

In the United States of America, people who wantonly kill other people are put to death.

You are so full of (*)(*)(*)(*) your eyes are brown!
The pro choice position IS the MOST widely accepted position on this topic!

 

Whaler said, "A baby is not a fully formed adult, but is still a human being. Same with a fetus."

Correct. A newborn is not a fully developed adult….but that does not mean its life is worth less and that its parent should be able to kill it.

How do you know this is true?

 

How do you know the opinion of an entire country?

Traditional morality…certainly is not shared by the LEFT and most who seem to be pro-abortion from what I have seen in my life. They do not believe that a child needs a mother or father…or both. They feel anyone can raise it and give it what it needs. They believe that marriage can be made up of anyone…..any combination. They believe what is best for that child…the government knows….and they undermined the parents every chance they get. In their eyes a child is better off dead if the circumstances of its birth do not align with the LEFT idea of what is right.

So it is quite evident that I believe the family is being attacked, assaulted really on many fronts. Magazines, movies, television and in our federal policies both state and federal. Deconstruction….of what has always been referred to the older and most basic social institutions on earth. It is why we today are in total chaos because it attacks natural order. The Left says there is no normative definition of family….anything goes. But one thing is for sure….fathers now a day are obsolete….mothers can do it alone….who cares about the child. Today divorce is nothing serious….living together is what ya have to do before marriage, its about the casual liaisons and SELF FULFILLMENT…..adoption is passé….abortion is the answer. If children are harmed….oh well…who cares.

We have a clash of world views today.

 

After a good while of internal debate, i've formulated an opinion. It seems that the primary argument used by pro-lifers to defend their cause is that it's immoral, 'wrong' etc. to kill/abort an unborn child because it is a human being like the rest of us. But where does the idea that human life of every kind, whether consciously alive or unborn, has the same value come from? It seems to be a purely moral idea, and, as i don't believe in morality, the argument does not convince me. Yes, unborn children are human beings, but they are not alive and/or self-aware, nor do they feel pain during the stage in which it is possible to abort them.

Simply put, what logical argument, devoid of morality (as cold as that sounds to believers, and i mean no offence), values all human life - inside the womb as well as outside?

A foetus is scientifically indisputably distinct from a birthed, fully functioning human being. Is it not appropriate that it is treated as such?
The foetus feels no fear or pain during abortion, and is not even self-aware(?)

Additionally, a lack of abortion will massively increase the already greatly problematic issue of huge global population growth, depleting Earth's resources and available land faster, and leading to overcrowding, which will arguably precipitate conflict.

Also, allowing people the right to choose whether or not to abort their unborn child gels with my ideals concerning personal liberty. For this reason, concerning an earlier comment proposing making it illegal to have children before the age of 18, i support the idea in spirit but i am opposed to the personal liberty it would curtail.

Well, that's just my current opinion. I'll add here that i'm grateful that i live in a country/nation where i can express said opinions freely - as long as they don't intentionally harm others.

 

Killing a newborn is illegal, and this discussion is not about newborns, its about fetuses.

 

Nobody is arguing for forced abortions, or even more abortions. The entire debate is about whether it is the choice of the mother to have an abortion. The rest of your post is nothing more than sensationalist paranoia. There is no war on the family. The whole idea is that people are free to choose. There's that C word again. Does it bother you when people have the power to make their own choices? It seems like it shouldn't, since you argue that it's not right for the government to make any choices for you.

 

Whaler has never been able to give any valid support for his claims .. and neither have you mouse.

If you want to claim that a fetus in the early stages of pregnancy is a living human then the onus is on you to provide some support for this claim.

 

"Traditional Morality" varies from culture to culture and from one time to another. It has been very common over history for men to be away for long periods of times - many years in the case of war or military service or just to earn a living.

The generalized claim that the left thinks a child is better off dead is pure idiocy.

 

Well it depends on what they are allowed to choose?

Do you think someone should be allowed to choose to view child pornography? Little children's bodies are beautiful right? Is there anything that you think should be off limits in your bag of….everything goes, we should tolerate everything?

The debate rests on whether you think that a living human should be able to be killed in the womb. You are pro death….those who really value life think this is a right that should not be allowed. It is a scientific fact that at conception…..it is a human….it is alive. Or no abortionisty would be needed. What is so hard for you to grasp here?

There is a war on the family and it is coming from the godless Left….who views are nothing more than the definition of narcissistic…self absorbed people who do not value anyones life but their own.

In order to live in a society in peace that society needs rules. And the most basic rule…would involve life…and the value of life both in the womb and out.

There is a clash of world views today between those who put the head of the unborn on the chopping block and those who want that block taken away. You want that board in place…..and then you try to convince yourself your this moral human being with the best interests of everyone in mind. Not so…not at all.

 

I would like to know how many of you are for late term abortion.

How many of you believe the woman should have control of her own body throughout the entire nine months?

 

You're the one who's putting forth the idea that I want no rules on anything, or that people should be free to choose to do anything they want. I've never argued that, ever. Child pornography is harmful to the child. Why would you think that any decent person would ever advocate in favor of it? I've certainly never made that argument, nor has anyone on this forum to the best of my knowledge. You have to stop thinking in extremes and absolutes or you're always going to be misrepresenting things.

Yes, it is human, it is alive. But it's not a person and it's a part of someone's body with no higher brain function.

Stop thinking in absolutes and indulging this fantastical and ridiculous view you have of the ENTIRE left.

I completely agree, rules are very important, and I agree with the 2nd part of your sentence, with the obvious stipulation being that it is the mother's choice about what happens inside her womb.

I don't convince myself of anything. I know myself. It's you that's trying to convince yourself that anybody that is pro-choice is, as I put it in a previous thread, two mustache hairs away from being Hitler.

 

Gametes can have two outcomes: human being, or nothing
Embryos can also have two outcomes: Human being, or nothing

We can see the outcomes (potentials) are exactly the same. How they could not be, when embryos come from gametes!

I personally think that abortion due to any reason the woman wants is morally neutral. No person, no victim, no crime.

In this case the mob rule aligns with my morality then.

Maybe if the world was static would this be true. But the world changes, and moral traditions which were helpful in the past are often not helpful or even harmful now.
Good example are morals regarding sex - in the past, when there was no reliable contraception, no safe abortion, no protection and treatments for common STDs, and people were often very poor, having a culture that imposes strict regulations on sex life and monogamous relationships was indeed beneficial and important for the society. This tradition has become largely obsolete and unneeded now. We have effectively decoupled sex from procreation, and largely eliminated the STD threat.

I said majority preferring something is alone not a good reason for it being moral, but that does not mean majority sometimes cannot be right.

 

Being a human alone is not enough to be valuable. You also must have a mind to be a person IMHO.

In the United States of America, people who wantonly kill other persons are put to death.
Fixed that for you.

 

The woman should have control of her body for the entire nine months because it is her (*)(*)(*)(*)ed body.

 

I think that regardless of the temptation to reduce you to a series of stereotypes I never lose track of the things you believe and the reasons for that belief. I don't agree with you on most issues but I'm as clear on the nature of your beliefs as I am on the reasons you hold them. And I don't think you would disagree with my description of you at all. This is good, right? Respectful, at the very least, to make a point of having read all the major works and then keeping up with the gist of the discourse from your side - it seems like a good idea if I'm going to have discussions where I disagree on things....

Which is why it's so frustrating to be mischaracterized, misunderstood, falsely accused and wrongly maligned, all during a simple explanation of the abortion issue. You are in some kind of deep moral struggle against a fictitious boogeyman. And I shouldn't really tell you this but you're not going to make any progress at all for your side if you're busy railing against pretend foes while real ones are standing in front of you. You're like a guy preparing for WWII by taking singing lessons: no amount of effort will change the fact that wars are less about harmony, melody and rhythm than jeopardy, misery, and ruin.

The difference between us, the main thing that divides us, is that I think every political solution needs to take into account the fact that humans can't be counted upon to do the right thing all the time. For every principled do-gooder with a solid 8 hours of sleep behind him you're going to get someone who's not so smart, or kind of angry, or drunk, or forgetful, or whatever.... And his or her little role in whatever it was they were trying to accomplish will only be 70 percent as effective, or reliable, or cheap, or whatever, as it should have been on paper. We are tremendously fallible, and I prefer whatever rules and regulations there are to be written with this in mind. It seems like your side feels that the simple solution would just be for everyone to stop doing whatever it is that's causing problems, and if they continue then it's a choice and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

I'm sorry. That verged on caricature. But if we look at the abortion debate your first and biggest mistake is to think of all of us as bloodthirsty sadists who really dig doing abortions. We don't. I don't. Some may but they are outliers and not at all representative of the consensus, which is no matter how you look at it an abortion is a terrible tragedy. One that we should do everything to avoid enabling. I would much rather live in a world where only women who want to be pregnant conceive and abortions are about as rare as rape.

So already we kind of agree, right? But we differ on the solution - your solution - "just make abortion illegal" doesn't address the unwanted pregnancy issue at all and assumes that by criminalizing something it will go away.

But it won't. And sure, a large number of women will have children who might have been aborted today. Some will be glad they did. But many will have children they are unprepared, unwilling, or incapable of looking after, and things will be so obviously bad that some women will still try to get an abortion despite the risks. And a bunch of bottom feeders will step in to offer dangerous, unregulated, potentially life threatening procedures at inflated rates to vulnerable women who have no legal recourse because they're nothing but dirty criminals now.

So you won't stop abortions. But you'll create a new criminal class. You'll kill a few women and fill a lot of schools with kids who, believe me, you will not be such an advocate for when they're old enough to wear a hoodie. If I could guarantee that all women had the brains and the money and the idea to use birth control, that rape and abuse didn't take place, that there was no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy then I would make abortion illegal too.

Except I wouldn't need to. But here, in the real world, legalized abortion is the lesser of two evils. And my side isn't just advocating for safe access to abortion, we're also fighting tooth and nail against you idiots to set things up so fewer abortions will ever be necessary. So we want the pill to be covered so nobody has an excuse not to be on it and you guys raise a stink about that. For the side that purports to be pro-life you guys do everything in your power to make sure abortions continue unabated.

Because you think that people will behave exactly how you think they should. And it's a sad fact that I know ths about you but you don't understand that liberalism is simply an attempt to address the way populations are, not the way they should be. Every schism breaks down along the same lines: we care less about some hypothetical right to bear arms than the reality that gun deaths rise proportionally to the number of guns. We advocate for a safety net not because we enjoy spending our money on people who aren't working but because our system guarantees that at least some people won't be working and we'd rather they not go hungry.

It's a mistake to assume we lack morals, or that anything goes right up to kiddie porn and donkey shows. We care just as deeply as you do about suffering, and wasted opportunities, basic human dignity and the value of all life. Splitting hairs over when a foetus becomes human is a red herring that assumes we don't care about the brief lives women sometimes feel the need terminate. You're right that we need rules. But what good are rules that can never be followed, reinforced by complete apathy towards the reasons so many women wake up appalled one morning to discover they're pregnant? Nobody likes abortion, but your alternative is worse than the status quo, and until you work to address the cause of the problem all your screeching about the sanctity of life sounds brittle and hollow. I know you're motivate by a bible you believe in and a desire to do the right thing but banning abortion to preserve the sanctity of life will cause so many intractable problems without actually stopping abortions from taking place maybe you should consider an approach that is preventative, that acknowledges the mistakes people make, and provides a healthy option for women at least until all the reforms we've been fighting for can pass and the pregnancy problem goes away. Until then whenever you say "pro-life" I'll think about the ordeals you're initiating, the neglect and violence and death you're advocating, and I'll marvel at your sanctimonious celebrations if you close the last last clinic, amazed that you're blind to how cruel you must be, deep in your hearts.

 

Fishmatter, that was an excellent well written and thoughtful response to Churchmouse. It gets a little tiring sometimes trying to have a conversation with someone who thinks you and all who may agree with you are sadistic monsters just because of being pro-choice.

I'd have given you rep but apparently I've already given you too much for other posts as it says I need to spread it around first.

 

Cheers. I might be nuts but it seems a worthwhile goal to look for common ground whenever possible. But none exists when your opponent is mind numbingly clueless about what we believe. Figuring out what makes the average right winger tick takes about 15 minutes but the way they make stuff up you'd think we belonged to some kind of secret society. Their cause is doomed if the best they can do is label us a bunch of bloodthirsty psychopaths. I think the net outcomes of many solidly right-wing policies are pretty grim for a lot of people but even that doesn't make them a bunch of murderers.

You know who's making more and more sense lately? And not just in comparison to the lunatic mainstream, but actual reasoned sense? David Frum, the guy who came up with the phrase "Axis of Evil." I disagree with him on many issues but to hear a conservative make a coherent argument without resorting to lies, distortions, or thinly veiled suspicion that we're all actually werewolves shouldn't seem refreshing, but it does. Can you imagine how many times Bill Buckley must have turned over in his grave by now? Again, no great fan, but I wish he had lived long enough to see what has become of his party. 15 minutes of angry words from him and this lot would disappear for a long time, ashamed to be seen in public.

 

fish matter said,


Yes our worldview are opposites in almost everyday and I believe they stem from attitudes and belief in God…that much is obvious. You are pro-abortion, I am not. Simple right? And I might add here…that you can reduce me to anything you want…that is what pro-choice aborts do. So whatever floats your boat is fine with me.


This is the thing…in a nutshell. Pro-aborts want to come across as moral on this issue. And that can't be the case to anyone who values life in the womb. You either value its life or not. YOU DO NOT. Pro-aborts do not want protection for the human life in the womb. They think its ok if someone in this case…women…want to kill it. Is that moral? No, absolutely not. And they can spin it all they want…but if they are pro-choice, they are pro-abortion. You would think that you guys would embrace this label. It is powerful…and that is what you want for the woman…power to be able to kill. You might be against rape…pornography….murder….stealing….and believe yourself to be moral about these issues…but the position is not moral
.
So if you say….I AM PRO-CHOICE….I am not in anyway as a pro-lifer mischaracterizing you on this issue. What have I falsely accused you of?

I am a Christian and a sinner…so of course I struggle with sin…like all Christians do. I am certainly not perfect. Perfect like you think you are right? The boogeyman is not fictitious…however its there and it has its hands all over certain people. It comes to seek and destroy and that is what is happening in society today. It is being fueled by people who fall victim to its advances…who believe it is something its not.

If you want the problem to go away….you take away what makes the problem a possibly. If you want to stop illegals from coming in….you enforce the laws…you patrol the boarders and you punish the lawbreakers. You make it impossible for them to succeed, EVEN THOUGH SOME WILL. If you want to save lives on the road you have speed limits you make seat belt laws. You want to save lives in the womb…you make it illegal for women to do it. Its a simple solution. Prior to 1973 abortion was ILLEGAL. It was immoral to have an abortion. And whats funny….most people believe its immoral even the ones who do the killing. They just look away…pretend that its a necessary evil. It isn't, it does not need to happen. Its a tough subject…pro-choicers say. Why? They know its immoral, they know its killing a human. They just want it legal.
How is that moral?

I never said you were a bloodthirsty sadist did I? Maybe that is the way you look at yourself?

I have been working in this field for over ten years on every level. I have talked and debated at colleges and universities against people who believe the same way you do. They represent all shapes, colors and sizes…but they all hold one thing above all others. The right for a woman to kill….the living unborn life inside them. They want that right for all women. THEY OPPOSE PROTECTION FOR THE UNBORN. YA CAN'T SPIN IT ANY OTHER WAY BECAUSE IT IS WHAT IT IS. You call it a tragedy…..how sad. That you condone tragedies. That says way more about YOU then it every does about Me. It matters not that you want to live in a world were abortions are rare…..because you still want the option of killing on the table. You do not value all life….you are pro-choice…which is pro-abortion.

Why do you condone something that you think is immoral and a tragedy? And you say I wrestle with demons? LMAO You are the one who is pro-abortion, not me.


I don't want to be associated with people who hold to your worldview and who are hypocritical about abortion. Unwanted pregnancy should not matter. There are many people who do what is right and have their babies anyway…and then are glad they did. There are many who have children who still don't want them.. I do not believe there is such a thing as an unwanted child. I believe given the right opportunity and if we make avenues available…there are people who want children and that they can be placed. I am nothing like you or those who hold your worldview.

It's called responsibility and doing what is right. If girls are ready to have sex…and we give them birth control …why are they not able to take the responsibility that comes with it? What if they get an STD? If you have sex….you can get pregnant….unless you are sterile..or he is. What you are doing here…is scrapping the bottom to justify what you believe…and that is why its ok to abort. Any reason is justifiable to you.


Here ya go again….this one should live, this one should not because…..YOU DONT THINK THEIR LIFE WILL BE WORTH WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO GO THROUGH. You want to decide who lives and who dies. The criminal class are those who perform the abortions…the doctors that do the killing. Yes women have the blood on their hands…but if there were no doctors performing them…the majority of children in the womb would be born, women would think twice before having sex. Don't even give the coat hanger excuse. And that should not be a reason to kill 99% that would live to save the very few women that might take matters into their own hands. YOU WANT ABORTION LEGAL.


You talk about the lessor of two evils….The evil is what the doctor does and you don't see it. You champion women's rights and one of them is to kill. I AM NOTHING LIKE YOU. AND IT IS THE DEEPEST INSULT YOU COULD MAKE TO EVEN SUGGEST I AM LIKE YOU. THAT THOUGHT REPULSES ME. IT MAKES ME SICK. I would never want to be your friend in the real world….never…never…ever. We of course are online debating and I know you are human and alive…but this is entertainment for me really. Not many views are changed on here. We have pro-life people…most don't come to debate because they have better things to do than to talk to morally sick people who want to kill unborns. Most here are pro-killing and spend the majority of their days bashing the God they believe does not exist and championing things like abortion….for the fun of it. I need my head examined really to even come here to discuss this with people like you. As I said…its entertainment. One thing I do know…that when someone who opposes you starts using profanity and calling names…like you just did by calling me an idiot…you know they are losin it. Is it within the rules that you call me names however? I thought we were to attack positions? And you called me an idiot? Is my position idiotic or is it me?


Your safety net…is killing. Killing unborn children. If that is not immoral I don't know what else is. I am nothing like you thank you Jesus.


Wow donkey shows….you do have a colorful mind…wow. I am saying that I believe being pro-choice is immoral. You might sigh over a lost puppy…but when it comes to the ripping, scrapping, burning, dissecting the unborn which is alive…in the womb…YOU WANT THAT TO BE LEGAL. Why don't you just own it? YOU DO NOT VALUE ALL LIFE. HOW CAN YOU SAY THIS.


YOU WANT WOMEN TO BE ABLE TO KILL…………..and you want to, you are trying to convince yourself its moral. LMAO

 

Mouse .. your losing it. This has zero to do with the topic and your understanding of personal freedom is horrible.

The argument about "a womans body" is about a person's right to their own body. This is far different than the freedom to impose ones will upon anothers' body as is the case with child pornography.

Do you not see the difference ?

The debate is not about what you have posted above (that a living human should be able to be killed in the womb)

The debate is about whether or not a living human exists.

You have given no valid support for your claim that a living human exists from conception.

Your claim that this is a scientific fact is fallacy.

 

Ugh. You didn't understand a single word of my post, did you? I am no more in favor of killing unborn children than you are. I just understand that making abortion illegal while maintaining the perverted Christian ideals that prevent free access to contraception and education is hypocritical and only makes things worse.

There's no point my continuing. Despite what I thought was a very clear post you continue to choose to believe things that, at best, help you sleep at night. But they have no basis in reality. The pro-life movement might have its heart in the right place but your goals are shortsighted and will do more harm than good. If you don't focus your efforts on preventing pregnancies in the first place (and finally admit that abstinence only sex-ed is as myopic as the rest of your platform) then I'm sorry, but you're doing nothing good here and seem fixated on making things worse, not better.

You don't want abortions? Prove it. The best thing you could do is lobby to triple funding to planned parenthood. But you heard that 93 percent of what they do is abortions, didn't you? That came from one of your own who got the number wrong by 90 percentage points. Small government is all well and good for you fanatics unless it involves women's private parts. Then you're all over pushing new and increasingly draconic regulation. The answer, as you would point out if this were any other issue, is not regulation. It's education and access. But every time you fools complain that 8 year olds shouldn't know where babies come from you're facilitating the very abortions I'm beginning to suspect you secretly fetishize. The only reason we have an abortion problem in the US in the first place is because of the screwed up way you insist on dealing with sex. Give everyone all the information and access to reliable contraception and then you can get on your high horse about unwanted pregnancies.