Indecent Wealth and Francois the new French leader

Government in Europe swung right at the last elections and may be about to swing again. I am reading that Sarkozy is behind in the current French polls and Francois Hollande, the man in the lead, is proposing to install a 75% high bracket income tax. He is quoted as saying he does not mind profit but "What I don't accept is indecent wealth".

It was somewhat surprising that France, with its history of liberté, egalité, fraternité and blockading of ports and motorways whenever Government has overstepped the mark, supported Sarkozy for so long with his civil liberties agenda, so not surprised if it's time for him to exit. "Francois Hollande wants fewer rich people, Nicolas Sarkozy wants fewer poor people," said Luc Chatel.

The rich being the rich, are expected to up sticks and bolt across the Channel to settle in London's financial centre or possibly up to Edinburgh in order to avoid the higher taxation. Hollande meanwhile, is advising them to pay up and show patriotism

Does Hollande know what he's doing, is he trying to tackle the economy, or publicising this attack on the wealthy to gain the popular vote, or is he as some as suggesting just a big old economic marxist?

 

He is only putting the top rate of tax on those with an income of over 1,000,000 EU pa.

I totally agree with him on principle. People who make a lot of money in a country need to put it back in. France as well as Germany has also been keen on the Robin Hood tax.

What we need imo is some sort of world wide regulation. I like the Robin Hood tax http://robinhoodtax.org/

France has lost it's AAA and if Greece goes down it is going to be hit hard. It is the right thing to do. The country needs more money. Whether it will bring much or even lose it I do not know.

 

Maybe he is trying to remind people of the purpose behind money. I'll try and explain what I mean.

Money is used for transactions, usually to buy goods and services. But somehow it has turned from a means to and end. Extremely wealthy people have more than they need but they keep hoarding it because it validates them.

 

I would argue the point that you have absolutely no right to take someone elses money simply because that person got of his ass and earned it.... but this is the european section afterall, so i wont bother.

Instead i will ask you, if 75% of the money that rich people earn goes to financing your undeserved government services then who do you think is going to make the necessary investments to keep the economy growing?

You? if that was the case, you'd be rich yourselves.

 

Earned is an interesting word, Munqi. If people sit in an office all day inputting to a screen, is that really "earning" to you any more than another office worker? Moving money about, is that not somewhat abstract earning? I don't see an issue with people earning, but perhaps there is an issue with people who don't appear to be doing much of anything but sabotage the economy, stock piling (not investing) more money than a human can ever need when the rest of the community they are taking money from is up (*)(*)(*)(*) creek. The indecently wealthy are not in a normal position. The world has changed through their activities, so why do you put your head in the sand and expect them to be untouched by what is going on while everyone else is right in the middle of it?

They live in a community, man is not an island. Everyone else in the international community is being told they must suffer to rectify the economic situation. Jobs are being axed everywhere, countries are being bailed out, people who did not undertake or authorise high risk nonsense are being asked to subsidise financial institutions which are "necessary to the economy" and "too big to fail". These institutions are not upholding their end of the bargain, but are withholding credit from the businesses they were "saved" to support and which their country needs and ...which are being held to ransom and forced to subsidise them.

Everything is relative. You are living in the country, you are earning from its proceeds. If you see it dissolving, then how is your future earning potential and what kind of lifestyle are you even going to have? The people Hollande refers to are there by the grace of the community for the purpose of improving the community by their contribution. They have become accustomed to retaining their indecent wealth for their own purposes and they have caused the economy of their country, no of the world, to crash and burn. Now, Government is asking them to step up to the plate and give something back.

I don't have a problem with that. The problem I see is that the indecently wealthy are out for themselves and regardless of the genuine need, will immediately absent themselves if their wealth is threatened (like they have all their wealth where any Government can interfere with it in the first place...ha...try Monte Carlo). UK Government has been pushed to cap bonuses and has been in the same position, where the indecently wealthy have threatened to move on elsewhere if their obscenely high income is interfered with (what a fine bunch of lads, their mothers, if they had mothers, must be very proud).

Although they may be simply political spin, I commend Hollande's comments and sincerely hope it sparks an international outbreak of backbone in other Governments, to the degree that the indecently wealthy have nowhere to run with their stockpile and are required to make contribution to clearing up the mess their greed created in the first place. Government here is already making advances in tracking and outflanking people who move money to avoid taxation.

 

It's worth clarifying that this isn't a proposal to tax anyone 75% of all they earn.

This is about a 75% rate on any income above a certain level. Someone earning 2,000,000 EU will pay exactly the same tax on the first 1,000,000 EU as someone who only earns a that amount in total. It's only on the second million that the 75% rate would apply.

For example, if 1,000,000 EU gross led to 600,000 EU net then 2,000,000 EU gross would lead to 850,000 EU net (600,000 EU plus 250,000 EU).

I personally think 75% is too high but you need to be clear and honest in presenting the situation.

 

1) People dont get rich by sitting around. They get rich by creating new companies in which everyone else then get to work in

2) Rich people do not stock pile money. Why on earth would they when they can get a good return for their investment? Why would they pass on free money?

3) and secondly, even if you buy the bull(*)(*)(*)(*) argument that greedy bankers are responsible for our problems, the vast majority of rich people arent bankers.

4) rich people arent rich because they happen to share a country with the european worker. The european worker is rich because he happens to share a country with the rich. Why do you think the average european makes 30 times more than the average chinese? Because hes in the right country. The rich dont owe you anything, you owe them.

 

Yes, I have noticed you before speaking like this and you reminded me of how Conservatives in the UK used to talk. They created jobs and felt they were investing in the country. They came from the old Gentry and had paternalistic feelings and frequently did indeed like to see those beneath them doing quite well.

That isn't what we are dealing with now. This new 'aristocracy' has no paternalistic feelings. The 1% isn't accurate. It is really 0.1% and these people could not give a rats arse for anyone or anything but the biggest profit. Hence they will move their financial gambles and games to wherever they believe they can make the most this day and have no loyalty to anyone but the bank balance.

These are the people we would do well to sort out before they destroy us all.

In dire economic times it is usual to tax those who can most afford it when the country needs. Obviously due to modern technology people can move their money where ever they want in a trice. That will be why Hollande has asked people to provide it as a "a patriotic act".

 

If you practice punitive taxation its not very convincing when you play the patriotism card.

If we had low taxes then im sure most rich people wouldnt mind doing that in crisis, but now they're just going to take it as yet another sign of class warfare and act accordingly - meaning that they'll take their money somewhere else.

 

So your position is just to let people take and no responsibility as your position was in another thread.

In 1944/45 the US had a top rate of tax of 94%

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213

What do you want, the French people to be living like the Greek?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17202274

We are currently in possibly a worse recession than the 1930's. It is appropriate that those who have more pay more. It is just unfortunate that in the current climate they find it much easier to avoid tax.

That is what is being asked. We shall see whether you are correct.

Oh try to get some understanding of this. You sound like you have just woken up in 1950.

 

There is initial evidence here suggesting that even a 50% tax level is counter productive , so the French are perhaps dicing with financial misjudgement in introducing any figure that is even higher , without having a solid idea of effects beforehand .
Probably they have not fully appreciated the message it sends out to high earners and possibly incorrectly to the rest of the world --- that France is temporarily slipping back to sloppy Socialist thinking .
And if high earners flock to Team GB and the world's financial capital , I feel sure that good right minded French people --- in every sense of the word Right --- will be richly rewarded .

 

I think it sends out the message that if you get greedy and screw up the economy for everyone else, get billions in tax payer's money to bail you out then award yourself huge bonuses you're going to be taxed to the hilt on it.

What if the parasites do leave the country? Just so long as they don't come here we have enough parasites of our own.

 

There is a different mindset emerging from the economic fiasco. It's not going to continue to be counter-productive to raise taxes if they are all in it together. Government continues to actively seek ways to corner and tax these people regardless of who they pay to hide income offshore and evade taxes while taking every possible penny from the economy. If there were a 75% upper bracket in France alone, it might be counter-productive to some extent for France. If UK follows suit and other EU countries follow and then other countries...where are the feckers going to run? The game is up.

By the same token, labour forces/unions need to unite internationally to stop these manipulative demagogues to globe trot in search of a poorer and poorer workforce and greater and greater indecent profits. That is also under way.

 

You two people should consider .
It's your type type of thinking that actually creates a Power Elite , New World Order or whatever label you find descriptive .
People who are Economic Drivers , innovative and ambitious find the types of theorising you involve yourself with as absurd .
They will simply move to BRIICs whilst the West declines and sinks
An Empire runs on its Generals , whether they are Economists , just Business people or literal Generals -- it all starts at the top .
Once those at the top are asked for more than they are prepared to give -- on a consensus basis , they simply pack their bags , wave good bye and leave for Indonesia , Australasia , South America , India or South Asia .
They don't need the theorists . But without them , the theorists are useless -- the 'army' has been decapitated .
The pendulum has rightly swung against "Generals" taking too much , but once you let it swing too far the other way , you then move into the situation where the patients are running the asylum .
"Patients " cannot move but " Generals"are mobile and switch asylums or simply go elsewhere and build new ones .
Socialism is great when you do not have the responsibility for creating wealth and maintaining it .

 

It all starts with who has control of the money

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This is hogwash. We used to pay much much more in tax. You are turning things inside out. The problem in the UK came when we stopped investing in Engineering, technology and manufacturing and instead set ourselves up at the mercy of the financial market. This has been a total drain on our expertise - our best brains hop along there where they can make 150 times as much as they can with a good engineering degree - the advantage of the good engineering career being that the person can design, create jobs and bring prosperity to the UK whereas the finance sector has us like pawns in their game. There is no feeling of giving to your country or caring for your people. The idea that this country presently has democracy is laughable. No party in this country has the ability to present policies of choice. It is the financial sector which decides what we do. I do not know exactly how much this is the same in France as they certainly do not have a financial market on the level we do. That is why France and Germany were wanting some kind of bankers tax -so that it is possible to claim back just a little bit of this money.

Look what has happened now we have privatised everything. It has gone way downhill

We have to stop this plunder and get back our democracies or we will soon be slaves ...or you guys can, I have other options.

 

But that is the entire problem, they aren't earning wealth, they aren't moving wealth from one place to another, they are creating wealth out of nothing and that is just madness.

They aren't trading in pieces of paper representing concrete things that actually have a value in the real world any more, they are creating things like derivatives out of nothing and already they have created more of them than there is hard currency in the world to pay for them. Over half the wealth of the world is not real, it is just bits on computers, just numbers, it represents nothing of value in the real world.

Everybody know what happens if a country just prints money, ask anyone in Zimbabwy, it just devalues everything for everyone and that's all these parasites are doing to the world

.

 

Total cobblers on every level. Ray, you continually insist on assuming I am a no-user. I am Scottish and therefore self effacing, but I work harder than you ever will and contribute, I have nothing against people achieving their dreams. I do not appreciate people who achieve their dreams at the expense of the people they take from. I think you can do both, achieve and help maintain a society where others do not starve and it is not rocket science to do that. When times are good, you are lightly taxed. When times are hard, you have to contribute some more temporarily. The problem is, that the drivers you refer to tend not to see it that way and that is why we need Government to stand up and insist on it.

If those people find that too taxing (yes it's a pun), let them go. I personally would rather starve than let them stay if they want special treatment. They are just like the rest of us.

And if they move on, where will they go? If they go to Indonesia, India (which doesn't need their help, it's progressing well) or South America (let it be Peru, they are such lovely people) then what is that likely to do?

According to you, it will increase wealth in those countries. Remind me why that is bad.

 

Except in the financial sector, wealth isn't created from nothing, it has to come from somewhere. The so-called "wealth-creators" have merely cornered ownership of the means of production, they didn't invent them. They can be replaced if they move.

 

By whom ? By members of the underbelly of Society ?
You clearly have a level of faith in your fellow dumbos that I do not .

You can dispute it violently , but it was the advent of the underbelly in financial operations that coincided with greed , deceit and manipulation taking over .
Financial and Banking matters were previously Bookmaking and betting for the privileged .The moment the working class barrow boys got involved , things got rapidly out of control .
( It's the same with Socialist revolutions -- the working class cannot handle wealth and power . Bit like Pop stars finding fame . Collapse around the corner)

How snobbish , elitist and class ridden , I hear you youngsters shout .
Absolutely I reply .
Play with the shape of the Triangle and reap the consequences , if that is not too convoluted for you .

 

Don't call me a youngster.

 

It's happening everywhere now, even the air we breath now has a value of $2.3 trillion on the world markets. We had an atmosphere before the carbon credit, nothing else has changed yet there is $2.3 trillion more wealth in the world, madness.

 

Oh dear . Another Old Fart then?

 

If I am remembering Diuretic correctly from when I used to post here a few years ago, the difference between you would be that he has some class.

 

It comes with age, but for sour grapes

 

Total SA (from Big Oil), despite huge profits, has been avoiding to pay corporate taxes in France due to tax exemptions.

Liliane Bettencourt (from Forbes Wealthiests) has been paying the same percentage of income tax as a minimum wage earner.

I'm not sure Hollande can do much to change the way the system feeds on the poor, but it is refreshing to hear of some balance.