It’s Time to End Magical Thinking About Russia’s Defeat

Instead of the Righties, who currently do?
Not likely, that "Leftists" would do that-- clearly you have zero insight, into the world view, of the Left.

I will point out that your fellow Righty, who started this thread, is of the opinion that we should have not provided any help to Ukraine, to resist Russia-- but it's all we lefties, who are ready to get cozy with Putin, right? Yeah, you really sound like you've got a handle on the present state of affairs. LOL.



P.S.-- Why don't you go back to look at threads on the invasion, to review which members were soft on interference with Russia. Be prepared to be astonished.

 

WRONG THREAD. I don't know what made either of you think that this thread was about Israel or Hamas-- but it's about Russia and Ukraine, and the support being given to help Ukraine, mostly by the West.

The good news, however, is that there are probably more current threads about the Israel/Gaza situation, than about Ukraine. So if you close your eyes, and pick again, you're likely to soon find one.

 

Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, November 17, 2023
Nov 17, 2023 - ISW Press



Ukrainian officials stated that Ukrainian forces have established bridgeheads on the east (left) bank of Kherson Oblast and are conducting ground operations aimed at pushing Russian forces out of artillery range of the west (right) bank of the Dnipro River. The Ukrainian Marine Corps Command and the Ukrainian General Staff stated on November 17 that Ukrainian marines have secured several “bridgeheads” on the east bank following successful actions and are conducting actions to expand these positions. US military doctrine defines a bridgehead as “an area on the enemy’s side of the water obstacle that is large enough to accommodate the majority of the crossing force, has adequate terrain to permit defense of the crossing sites, provides security to crossing forces from enemy direct fire, and provides a base for continuing the attack.” The doctrinal definition of a bridgehead does not stipulate a certain size for the crossing force, the extent of the secured positions, or the ability to transfer and operate heavy military equipment from those positions. The necessary size of a bridgehead depends on the operations it is meant to support, and the official Ukrainian acknowledgment of these positions as bridgeheads indicates that the Ukrainian command assesses that these positions are sufficient for continuing ground operations on the east bank.

 

'Should' has nothing to do with it. How much resources can we afford to invest into a lost cause? And how close to nuclear war can we stray for a lost cause?

Ukraine isn't getting back any of the land Russia has taken, and the fighting is at best stalemated until we stop avalanching weapons to Ukraine, and then Russia wins. We can't avalanche forever... so when do we accept reality?

 

Are you suggesting we can keep offsetting Ukraines lack of warfighters with tens of billions of dollars in equipment for years? Because thats the only thing that is keeping the Ukraine military from immediate collapse and total route.

 

Its called attrition. They fight like that because they can win like that.

 

We aren't risking nuclear war. If we don't stand up to Russia, we are risking even MORE fascist takeovers by Russia if we don't resist their current fascist attack.

 

I guess the sanctions we put on Russia didn't lead to Russia's collapse like we had hoped. It was a nice plan but with other countries willing to fill up the holes in trade applied to Russia by the West, namely Russia's current trading partners.

Those same nations are rivals to the West. China, North Korea, India (which is new), etc. Oppressive nations of the world unite!

These same nations seem to pop up again and again to cause trouble in the world. The network is vast, from China to Russia to Iran, these nations almost form an axis power network that spans the world! It's almost like the world would be a better place if we just stood up to these troublemakers once and for all. The world might be a better place.

Of course, that's World War 3, but with world events as they are, we might be moving in that direction anyway, being pulled kicking, screaming, and clawing all the way, unwillingly.

 

You have a very poor memory and/ or a truly bizarre notion of what 'victory' looks like for Putin if you think think the current situation in Ukraine represents a 'victory' for Russia. It doesn't.

For a start you're (very conveniently) overlooking the pre-war victory conditions Putin stated when initiating this war. To remind you Russia invaded with the following stated objectives (in no particular order):

1) Occupy Kiev and most if not all of Ukraine. (Not achieved.)
2) Overthrow and install a a pro Moscow puppet government as a prelude to eventual reintegration into Russia proper. (Not achieved)
3) Preventing the development closer economic ties between Ukraine and the West by stopping it from applying for membership in NATO and the EU. (Not achieved.)
4) Demonstrating Russia's military and technical prowess on the battlefield as a means of intimidating NATO and increasing its share of global arms sales in the process. (Not achieved - its share of the market is way down.)
5) Boosting Russia's image as a world power and increasing it's international prestige (along of course with Putin's own). Not achieved.
6) Oh and before I forget. De-nazifying Ukraine. Nuff said.

Lets be clear. The above were Putin's goals when he started this war. He has not achieved any of them. Given that fact Putin's current military situation is not a 'victory'. Instead he is currently left struggling to achieve something entirely different. A stalemate.

Forcing his opponent to the negotiation table is now the only option Putin has left and he is in a position where the best he can hope to achieve is the mere appearance of victory for domestic consumption.

The war has imposed a huge financial and human burden on Russia as well as serious reputational damage. There is no metric that translates that cost into a victory fr Russia. And that's even assuming they manage on to hold on to all the territory they currently hold - which is highly unlikely. Because Putin (and Russia) will almost certainly be forced to make further territorial concessions when Ukraine finally does agree to negotiate. Why? Because otherwise whats in it for them?

 

No they don't, unless it is jewish.

 

Here is an interesting video on the topic.

 

They are achieving exactly what they wanted to. I suggest you go back and actually listen to what Putin said, instead of what the fake news media said. That would be the same Putin the fake news said was on his death bed 10 years ago.

 

FYI

MOSCOW, Nov 2 (Reuters) - Russia's dominant lender Sberbank (SBER.MM) reported a record quarterly profit of 411.4 billion roubles ($4.41 billion) on Thursday and a return on equity (ROE) of 27.6% as it recovers from slumping profits in 2022.

https://www.reuters.com/business/fi...Nov 2 (Reuters),from slumping profits in 2022.

 

Are you suggesting that that which has already been done in supplying them for years cannot continue for more?

just how pathetic and weak do you think the US is?

 

Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq... our track record hasn’t been great since WW2. We have the bad habit of starting fights and dragging them out for years, before walking away with zero gain and many thousands dead. Not to mention the extraordinary costs involved. Though the MIC loves it, as do the politicians invested in those companies.
We are doing the same thing to Ukraine. Dragging out the conflict, giving just enough to keep it at a stalemate as the meat grinder swallows the youth of Russia and Ukraine. It is madness. Negotiate and end it.

 

well you can look at it this way. every Russian soldier, tank, airplane or artillery piece that our tax dollars help Ukrainians eliminate is one less soldier, tank, airplane or artillery piece that our own soldiers may have to deal with in the near future given the fact that putin is a mentally unstable Napoleon wanna bee

 

Very. Lard asses, blue hairs and trans ain't the definition of strong.

Nearly 70% of active service members are overweight, report finds
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...-service-members-are-overweight-report-finds/

 

Or, we could make an effort to actually conduct diplomacy that is actually in the spirit of being mutually beneficial rather than exploitative. Then nobody dies.

 

Is that the same reason we have a dozen or so bases scattered around Syria? Tell me again why we are occupying that sovereign country (besides stealing oil and enriching the MIC/politicians)? Further cementing our status as world bully/******bag?

 

A tentative peace deal was shot to hell 18 months ago by Boris Johnson at the behest of President Mail Ballot

 

A historical first, the first mail order president !

But I think I can get a much better one on Amazon for $62.78

 

yeah you can try to pet a rattlesnake that has crawled into your bed too rather than shooting it.

 

we aren't doing a really great job at stealing oil. I figured after Iran took our hostages, we should have appropriated their oil as payment.

 

Ukraine is running out of manpower. Russia is not. Ukraine is holding on at the moment due to the sheer volume of material we are dumping onto their battlefields for them. Its not that we keep giving what we've been giving, its that we keep giving more and more while Ukraine has less and less of its own. Eventually it WILL come down to whether we officially fight Russia on behalf of Ukraine or not because Ukraine is running out of the one thing we cant give them- troops. Barring the direct ('official') involvement of our own military (an effective declaration of war against Russia and all that entails), Ukraine can't win. All we're doing now is depleting our resources and depleting the Ukrainian population to prevent ethnic Russians in Ukraine from seceding to Russia.

 

I suppose that makes some sense to you...