May determined to make it her deal or no deal. Corbyn has asked for No Confidence motion

IMO the issues are quite clear. Any form of Brexit is bad, a no deal Brexit is likely to be the worst. Political intransigence prevents abandoning Brexit, there can be no referendum in time and for MPs to take control of the process prompts the question "to what end" ?

Both major parties are committed to Brexit.

I'm having a go at Corbyn because he is nearly as much part of the problem as Theresa May. He has "suddenly" decided that supporting a second referendum because he sees it as a way to become Prime Minister, not through any great embracing of democracy (if he believed in democracy he'd have listened to the 2/3 of his party who voted Remain - he's decided that the 52% (the great majority of whom support the Conservatives and/or UKIP) must be listened because he mistakenly thinks this advances his own anti-EU agenda.

You brought up the cost of "No Deal" planning.

How am I being offensive ? You've repeatedly lauded Jeremy Corbyn and his fight against neo-liberalism, a cause he appears to be inadvertently helping with his support for Brexit.

I'm not blaming everything on Jeremy Corbyn, but as the leader of the opposition he is the person best placed to fight Brexit. Instead, although he seems anti Theresa May's version of Brexit, he has supported the Brexit process at every opportunity in the mistaken belief that he can somehow magic up a version of Brexit which is beneficial.

 

You suggested Corbyn was my 'hero' suggesting I was a child without the ability to think for myself....or omg is that the level that people you discuss things with are on so that you believe that is a normal way to treat people. I have a 2/1 hons degree in Social Science and am past retirement age. You clearly are a person who likes to belittle those he is supposedly debating. You are the person who continuous has worked to make this a thread about Corbyn rather than the reality of the situation. I suspect you were projecting onto me and the reality is that you are unable to look at situations objectively, but must always blame Corbyn even when you have been shown he is not to blame.

You are the person who adds two and two and makes five not me. Yes, I believe that Corbyn along with Sanders, Diem 25 and others are our only hope for bringing the West back from the point of fascism and it is neo liberalism which has brought us to this point.

As far as money is concerned you obviously want to stop that being discussed. Money is a very important part of what is going on. Without the very poorest suffering from extreme austerity due to the Blairite Government under Gordon Brown deciding to bail neo liberalism out after they failed, the ordinary people of the UK would not have had to pay for it. It is that that was used by the Brexit door stoppers to get them to vote for Brexit - at the same time kindling aversion of 'the other' which was very well seen after the vote with the massive increase in racist incidents in England. Without the vote f these people suffering austerity there would have been no Brexit win.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09654313.2018.1501469

It is neoliberalism and its consequenses which gave rise to the Brexit vote. Brexit is not going to produce an improvement for the people suffering. Indeed it is going to make their situation worse. Neo liberal's only interest is how profitable something is. Austerity before gave rise to fascism and that is what I keep reading people believe we will move to if we don not change.

https://www.eesc.europa.eu/en/news-...come-and-how-stop-it-common-european-response

The argument that Blairites have against Corbyn is that he believes in social democracy. A return to social democracy is probably the only thing which will save us from fascism...We now have 8 people with as much wealth as half the world. That is neoliberalism for you. Increasing inequalities. Both Blairite Labour, which you seem to be part of, and the Tories continue to support neoliberalism basically against the people and democracy as it is a Plutocracy which we are now. The Brexit vote was one of the very view times when those without had a voice and they said '**** You'.. Corbyn and those who think like him offer a way out that does not resort to fascism....and without stability with climate change deniers in charge, what about climate change. Will there even be a world left.

Anyway I have spent far too long on this and must get moving.[/QUOTE]

 

Gosh, you really are reading rather a lot into a throwaway comment but if you want to carry on......

From a political perspective, Tony Benn was one of my heroes. His willingness to give up a peerage to serve the public, the unstinting service he gave to his constituents and the principled way he approached his work made me admire him greatly, even though I disagreed with many of his policies. That doesn't mean that I'm a child with an inability to think, rather that I've thought carefully and come to the conclusion that he is someone I admire greatly.

You seem determined to personalise this argument and to infer personal insults when none were intended and IMO none were given.

I'm not sure how you can absolutely absolve Jeremy Corbyn from blame for Brexit. He campaigned visibly unenthusiastically for Remain, he has steered the Labour Party towards an enthusiastic pro-Brexit stance, he has voted in favour of Brexit when given the opportunity and as the leader of the opposition he has has been wholly ineffective at opposing the government. IMO Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party are complicit in this damaging Brexit.

Well that's your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it. My question is that, if Brexit is a neo-liberal ploy which will lead to disaster, why is Jeremy Corbyn still advocating it and why has he made sure that it is Labour Party policy ?

I don't want to stop discussing money.

I don't know where you get the idea that Gordon Brown is responsible for austerity. One of the reasons given for the Labour Party losing the election in 2010 was that public spending was spiralling out of control - because we were in the aftermath of a global recession. Austerity was introduced by the coalition government who came into power in 2010 and I absolutely agree that the effects of austerity, and in particular the effects on local services which the government decided to blame on immigrants instead, were a major factor in some people voting in favour of Brexit.

None of that changes the fact that instead of opposing Brexit, and all it will mean in terms of increasing poverty and inequality, Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party have embraced it.

 

This would appear to be the reason that Corbyn is supporting Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

OK, according to Richard Wolff, if the Labour party gain power they intend on bringing in a new law on the selling of any business. If someone wants to sell a business the first people they will need to offer it to will be the workers. They then can decide whether they want to buy it and work it in a democratic way, basically be a workers co-op. This is what people were talking about back in the early 80's before monetarism and neo liberalism scorched any democracy. They will be able to make the decisions democratically. It is believed this will have many benefits. For instance at the moment the business is owned by one or a few people who make all the decisions. If they find a piece of technology which can do the job with half the workers, the owner sacks half the workers and pockets what he saves on only having to pay half the people. If however it was a workers co-op they would almost certainly choose instead to work half as long for the same pay, leaving them more time to be involved with their families, community and so on. In addition if it is the workers who own the business, they will almost certainly live in the locality. Due to that the likelihood of them chucking toxic waste around when it would affect them is greatly reduced. There are several successful co-ops. Spain apparently has one which began in the 50's with a priest and 6 workers and now has 200 businesses hiring over 100,000 people working democratically.

I think what Corbyn is talking about here

above link. This rule would stop the State under Labour being able to lend Workers Democratic Co-ops the money to get started - and of course any regenerating in other ways.

 

Sounds like a great deal, risking the entire economy to enact some legislation on government support for business which would prevent the UK being a member of the customs union - one of the things Labour is promising they would deliver.

A Labour Brexit would be no better nor no more deliverable than Theresa May's.

 

Skwawkbox speaking f a rush of articles/fake news on Corbyn today.

No, of course today’s fake news re Labour/Brexit is not coordinated

 

The London Schol of Economics did research into media reporting of Corbyn and discovered their was a vast misrepresentation of him by same.

examples given at link

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rters-fail-to-accurately-report-a7140681.html

LSE Report


http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/67211/1/CA...resentations of Jeremy Corbyn_Author_2016.pdf

This bias and distortion has not changed.

 

Jeremy Corbyn is still fervently pro-Brexit as your own cites prove......

 

The subject of this thread is not whether Jeremy Corbyn has received fair coverage in the press, it's Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit.

As I understand it, and it seems to be supported by the links you have provided, Jeremy Corbyn is still pro-Brexit on the grounds that it will allow a future Labour government to provide the kind of state support for industry prohibited by the EU. The trouble is, that same state support would also prohibit the UK entering a customs union with the EU which means a Labour-led Brexit would at best be the same kind of Brexit proposed by Theresa May and at worst would be the kind of hard Brexit favoured by Rees Mogg and his ilk.

I cannot see how a Corbyn-led Labour Party avoids the economic problems that Brexit brings......

 

Fascinating insight into who Blairite Labour are working for

Mark Wadsworth a lifetime anti racist was expelled over this false claim - which she herself had deleted. Would you know this from the mainstream papers? Not a bit of it.

https://electronicintifada.net/blog...urs-expulsion-black-campaigner-marc-wadsworth


Labour Israel lobbyist deletes anti-Semitic “conspiracy” claims

Just one of the never ending false claims of antisemitism against the left f Labour.

So lets go on with where Blairite Labour comes from and what its intent is

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/07/22/smee-j22.html

so Labour sold the UK out on foreign policy as well as ending our social democracy, or rather our democracy when it embraced neo liberalism.

This article is talking about work done by Charter 88 to try and secure democracy for the UK

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourki...new-epoch-for-democratic-resistance-has-begun

So here we are sold out by Blairite Labour to the US, the Israeli Lobby and Corporate rule through neoliberalism. That is why they do not like Corbyn ....and the US itself, like the UK no longer a democracy and they have almost fully sold out their sovereignty. In most states of the US, people's jobs rely on them pledging loyalty to Israel in order to get or to keep their job. No demcratic or independent country makes its citizens pledge loyalty to a foreign country.

 

....all very interesting (and a little conspiracy theoristy), but Jeremy Corbyn still wants to take the UK out of the EU in order to enact legislation which would also prevent the UK from being in a Customs Union with the EU.

A Labour Brexit is no more realistic or achievable then Theresa May's.

 

Labour would challenge the EU's neo-liberalism. That would provoke interesting reaction in the EU, which has too long been dominated by Franco-German conservatism. They loved your Blair!

 

Remaining in the EU and reforming from within - great idea

Leaving the EU and screwing the economy - bad idea

Both of the above IMO.......

 

If you want a true socialist government, then you cannot be in the EU. It has become, by definition, a right wing construct. Corbyn's election will put the cat amongst the pigeons. Its the best thing for Europe and the UK.

 

...you need to talk to Alexa who thinks Brexit is the neo-liberals seizing control.

For a right wing construct, an awful lot of right wingers are dead set against it unless BoJo and Rees-Mogg are the new face of The Resistance

 

That's the amusing aspect. Neoliberals are for and against. They have dominated the debate, largely through government or illegal monies. I can only see Corbyn providing a genuine alternative.

You'll be saying Blair is left wing next...

 

Stoop making things up again. The neo liberals have been in control since the 80's

 

According to this



Brexit came about due the the UK needing to make a choice between being an alley with the EU or the US due to the impending world war due to Capitalism coming to the point where it again needs one to reshare the spoils. (Climate Disaster is also mentioned)

He believes that the Tories could not make up their mind so eventually Brexit. Poor move he says as the EU cannot allow the UK to do better than them or others will try and if we get No Deal - absolute catastrophe, possibly even people starving though we would probably go to war with Russia with the US. The US is apparently making preparations for a world war.

I think what the Don was thinking of was a couple of articles from the LSE which believe that Brexit is a last Ditch attempt to save dying neo liberalism and both of those things could be right.

The film above goes into the massive danger of Climate Devastation coming at the same time as Imperialists need their world war. His recommendation is socialism.

 

Neat summary of the misinformation peddled by the mass media:

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot....aXwGjskF2vemxLw33IQjR26i8YvhQ0MOXzowc_s9CqAWw

 

so Alexa, should we be in or out of the EU ?

My call is in on the grounds that the UK out of the EU will suffer a decade long recession and will fall victim to the worst excesses of the Trumps and Rees-Moggs of this world which is why the right wing is so profoundly pro- Brexit

 

The right wing isn't profoundly pro-Brexit. They are mixed, depending on their own little rent-seeking endeavours. We do know that the current EU set-up is alien to left wing principles.

 

The Guardian is not what it was. Here is another where it is up to similar against Assange

https://www.thecanary.co/global/wor...nst-julian-assange-that-breaks-all-the-rules/

 

The beauty of the shake up in politics is that a lot of folk, and papers, have been found out! They relied on consensus politics to pretend value.

 

It is hardly going to have a decade of Trump and Mogg if Corbyn is PM. I am interested in a move to social democracy and even more after watching that film as it argues very well how Marx saw Capitalism going and we are without question at the point when we go to war. Given that the world would not survive that due to both nukes and that it would finish off climate disaster a different approach is needed.

Ideally I would stay part of the EU. Varoufakis has been keen on keeping the EU together because of his strong belief that otherwise Europe will disintegrate into Ethnic Nationalists States and fascism and that was before we were seeing the movement we are now. So now Diem25 is working to try and get this working, keeping the EU together, making it properly socially democratic. That is what I have been supporting.

If Corbyn was not able to make a deal with the EU in which he could put in policies such as selling business to the workers to run democratically, then I think probably it would be best for the UK to leave, again depending on the deal. I believe that a UK working towards being a genuine social democracy would be helpful to Diem 25, could work with it and could also provide a different alternative to Europe to the far right which is the only one on offer at the moment.

 

I think it has changed though. I am sure I read that one of its Editors had left and is working with Corbyn.