Moderna says an omicron variant vaccine could be ready in early 2022

Death, this guy is so clueless that by now he's saying that the instructions to make the antibodies PASS DOWN TO YOUR CHILDREN!!!!! I'm getting this, from your post mentioning what he's saying, because I stopped reading him once he called me and my colleagues, criminals against humanity.

The vaccines do NOT alter the human genome. The instructions can't be transmitted to your children...
Seems like this guy never studied the basics of biology. We only pass down to our children, the genes in our reproduction system cells. We don't pass down instructions that reside in B memory cells which have nothing to do with reproduction. LOL.

Yes, this level of insanity is best left ignored.

 

Since our discussion, 557, I've been careful to include the loss of vaccine effectiveness as a possible long-term effect in case one is inclined to classify these as "side effects" which frankly, in 41 years of exercise of medicine and medical sciences, I've never seen anybody including this real problem, in the definition of what is customary to refer to, as a "side effect." But in tribute to your good point, I've adopted this caveat every time that I post about it, now.

I'm glad that you are also doing what I asked you to do, to say that while this has been seen with a couple of other viruses, it hasn't been seen yet for the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, and maybe never will.

I'd like to add what I had added before, that this in itself, even if it does come to happen to the vaccines against the SARS-CoV-2 (again, not an ounce of evidence of that, so far, that subsequent boosters would result in drop of effectiveness; much the opposite, just recently an Israeli study showed a bump of 100-fold of neutralizing antibodies with a booster), it is MUCH more important to vaccinate people NOW, during this acute and lethal pandemic, than worry about some possible, theoretical, maybe never to materialize loss of effectiveness several years from now, when we'll likely have other and better solutions such as the polimerase inhibitor oral antivirals.

In the future we may not even need these vaccines... the virus may attenuate (actually Omicron may be just that) and the oral antivirals may make of it a case of the sniffles, with no death and no organ damage, at which point any loss of vaccine effectiveness would be irrelevant.

It's NOW that we need these vaccines, and it's NOW that we must vaccinate as many as possible.

For other readers (I know you perfectly understand), the loss of effectiveness that we're talking about is not the same as a mutant like Omicron escaping the vaccines. That's different. I'd say that the loss of effectiveness with subsequent boosters is a problem from the vaccine side, while strong antigenic drift is a problem from the virus side.

------------

This said, there's been a new development.

The proverbial s... has hit the fan.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.14.472719v1.full.pdf

This new Columbia University study released pre-print today, pre-peer-review (but I stand behind Dr. David Ho, he is a fine scientist), is nothing short of catastrophic in terms of antigenic drift for Omicron.

It's a near total drift. Dr. Ho and his assistants found virtually no efficacy of convalescent plasma, the 4 main vaccines (our 3 + AZ) including boosters, and 19 different monoclonal antibodies, and also spotted 4 additional mutations to the spike protein that hadn't been described before.

Of course there is still cellular immunity.

But it seems like our existing vaccines will do almost nothing against Omicron.

At Cornell University, in 4 days, a "very high" percentage of Omicron was found in 986 students who tested positive, and 97% of them were fully vaccinated, some boosted. They did not mention the exact number that they considered "very high" because the diagnosis was, I assume, by S-gene dropout in the PCR tests rather than by genomic sequencing, so they don't have the exact number, given that while an S-gene dropout is very common in Omicron and very rare in Delta, chances are overwhelming that most if not all cases with the S-gene dropout are indeed Omicron, but elegantly, given the lack of absolute certainty, they just said "very high."

To put it in perspective, 986 students in 4 days tested positive... while the previous 90 days PUT TOGETHER had 465 students positive.

In 4 freaking days Omicron caused twice as many infections as the total of the last 90 days! With almost all students being fully vaccinated!

And it's just the beginning.

[For those who unlike 557 don't know Virology/Immunology, an "S-gene dropout" refers to a PCR test that of its three genetic detectors, for the viral genes that codify for the S, the N2, and the E proteins, the test only detects N2 and E but not S, which is almost always the case for Omicron, but is almost never the case for Delta which shows positive in all three]

 

I like your comparison of humans to UFO computers. It’s not even humans, it’s the DNA - by activating different regions it synthesizes proteins that form complex structures. On the top of that it copies itself and organizes billions, if not trillions, copies of itself in different cells into mind bogglingly complex structure called human body. It also has insanely huge storage - while we are limited to using ones and zeros, DNA uses chemistry, which gives it a heck of a lot of room, if we could use that technology we could probably fit entire internet on a floppy disk.

The higher degree of accuracy you want, the higher range of parameters you need to accommodate in your model. It gets to a point where the result is not worth the cost.

I do think that ultimately the mRNA vaccines will be considered safe by almost everyone, except for those who resist all types of vaccines. To me, the whole environment surrounding emergence of covid and the vaccine on such a short time scale when we could not utilize the mRNA vaccine platform on viruses we are much more familiar with just seems very odd. If we had mRNA vaccines around for flu for at least a couple of years before covid then I would not feel so hesitant. On the top of that, our social environment underwent drastic changes in the same timeframe - things that were considered absurd just a couple of years ago are being seriously discussed now (just from the top of my head - subject of defunding the police).
The combination of these factors are lowering risk tolerance levels to a lot of people who are otherwise fully supportive of science and vaccination.

I did not know about subunit vaccines. Adding that to the list of my reading material.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

 

Read this:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210909124034.htm

As for the rest - do you even speak English?

 

I believe that if you die of covid and are not vaccinated - it’s your own damn fault. And I’m saying that as someone who is not vaccinated, but covid didn’t kill me, in fact, I was on a beach in less than a week after being diagnosed with it.
No need to get yourself worked up over this. There are people out there who are aware that they have aggressive cancers but they consciously refuse to try to treat it. Everyone should be free to make a decision, even if that decision results in their own death.
If you are a fatso who can’t climb a flight of stairs and refuse to get the vaccine then you are free to do as you please, but you will probably die from covid. But if you are healthy and of the age where odds are low, then I see no reason why someone cannot go unvaxed with reasonable confidence that they can recover should they get infected and even benefit from more comprehensive acquired immunity which might come handy when they get older.

 

We are in for a lockdown, aren’t we? I don’t believe anyone even died of omicron so far!

 

Wanted to add to this post - I’m not implying that mRNA vaccines alter recepients dna in some bad way that alters it’s functionality. All I’m saying is that judging from some fresh discoveries, the fragments of every pathogen that we encountered in our lifetimes do get recorded in our own DNA.
Death was claiming that our immune systems have no memory component to them and my comment was meant to point out to him that we don’t just have the memory in our immunity, the data somehow does end up in our DNA, which is perfectly normal and makes sense.

 

Yes thank you but I still needed to have your conformation lol!

 

No that is not what I said. I said the memory you think you are talking about is LIMITED and the scenarios you present are not possible.

What fresh discoveries are you referring to? Di you even know what gets recorded in DNA?

Fresh discoveries? If you can not cite the medical study with due respect posing it with a "fresh discovery" label to make it appear as if it exists is absurd.

 

At this point wow, just wow.

1-Some people can not take the vaccine because of preexisting medical conditions through no choice of their own. Some people are "fat" because of medical conditions beyond their diets, i.e., glandular problems.
2- What some of us have stated is if you do not take the vaccine for Covid 19, then you can not expect to be in public exposing yourself to others.
3-This is a matter of all of us working together to best contain the spread of a contagious virus.
4-Cancer is not contagious and being fat is not contagious but clearly ignorance as to both is.
5-For someone who refers to doctors as criminals for not taking sufficient time to develop vaccines you sound quite criminal in your description of fat people-the point being that doctors, the very same doctors you claim are criminals can not and will not turn away fat people from receiving medical treatment-unlike you they took at oath and follow a code in regards to what they can and can not do and hold themselves accountable for their behaviour through regulated professional colleges.

 

Didn’t you write this:

Im not the only one who interpreted your statement as denial of the existence of cellular immunity.

The link is in my post you quoted.

I don’t think anyone has a complete picture of what is recorded in DNA. Doesn’t negate my point in any way.

I know that there is a small percentage of our society that has impaired immune system or don’t have a functional one at all. I was generalizing. Weren’t you the one who complained about absolute math? Yes, there are people who have serious health issues, but since when does the society change its behavior to accommodate a very small number of sick individuals?

That’s authoritarianism in its purest form. If you are afraid of the virus - take the shot, wear a mask, and mind your own business.

It’s pretty obvious that it’s not working.

You are being disingenuous and are trying to debate yourself because I never stated these two conditions are contagious. You literally grab a few flashy words out of entire sentence, discard the context, imagine that I said something else and then trying to debate that imaginary statement.

Again, you are being disingenuous and are making an argument on something that you completely made up, as I never made the argument you are trying to address here.

 

I was reading this morning the hospitalization rate for Omicron in South Africa is substantially lower than for other variants and Wuhan. Thank goodness there is positive information to go along with the negative.

In the study you provided I think it would have been interesting to look at antibodies from memory B cells especially long lived plasma cells. The convalescent advantage in B cell maturation may come in handy with Omicron. The worst news to me is inability of monoclonal antibodies to neutralize Omicron.

 

The first two shots did this to me. I won't be getting the booster.

 

/EndThread

Seriously, I'm sick of hearing how effective the vaccine is and yet one is not protected unless YOU are also vaccinated. Makes no sense.

 

In regards to your first response, anyone looking at my quote can read and see how you misread it. Read it again. Maybe you need to do it slower reading one word at a time at this point. Seriously man read what I wrote. You are so caught up in your own preconceived notions you can't read what others write. Who are these other people who did not understand me, lol. I want names, addresses, phone numbers. Do they exist?

What link. Provide the link and fresh new information. Go on. Where is the fresh new info. Lol. If you produced it produce it again.

Next your admit you do not know what DNA stores but then go on to defend your opinion as to what it stores. O.k. thanks for that.

Your statement about authoritarianism makes zero sense.

 

There are contradictory messages going around again. One MSM publishes a study that omicron is light. There is another one that says it’s not different from delta.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/17...-variant-less-severe-than-delta-uk-study.html

These days we don’t have unbiased mass media. It’s impossible to know with confidence about what’s going on with covid unless you roll up your sleeves and do your own research, which in itself subjects you to your own biases.

 

It should be noted that authoritarianism denotes imposing ones strict rules of obedience on others without concern for the rights or interests of those others.

In the above case Thedimon claims its authoritarianism because he is being forced to wear a mask or take a vaccine. In reality, no one has ordered him to wear a mask or take a vaccine BUT in that same reality he wants to be able to walk about in public with no vaccine and no mask exposing others to his possible contaminants. Therein lies the irony. It is in fact Thedimon being the authoritrian thinking he can impose his behaviour on others. No one has asked him to do anything but stay away from them if he won't show basic courtesy and I think that captures what I would refer to as a narcissistic them throughout Thedimon's responses where he can not acknowledge any opinions other than his own and has yet to provide any medical studies to back up what he says. Not one study. He claims he provided medical studies but to date all he has done is refer to his unspecified "math process" but zero scientific data.

On top of that he now has decided to tell me he has never argued that Covid 19 vaccines are dangerous because they were too quickly researched and the full long term consequences based on his magic memory theory prove this to be so.

He claims I made that up.

Ok then.

 

Lol, you just made a lame assed argument to be ignorant. Of course media can be bias. Of course messages and information can be confusing and complex.

All the more reason not to research something you do not understand.

What the hell will Thedimon research? Computer programs? How is he or you or anyone able to research immunology, metatology, pharmacology? Do any of you or Thedimon or,e have the prerequisite knowledge in chemistry, biology, medicine? Of course not. We can't research what you are not equipped to be able to understand. What we can do is try read what the hospitals, health clinics, doctors, are telling us and if we have questions or concerns, ask.

Ironically Thedimon just illustrated why ignorant people feel they can just shoot off at the mouth as self anoited experts.

Do us all a favour. If you are afraid or uncertain, go talk to your doctor or pharmacist or even a community health nurse or call a health clinic hotline or government hotline on Covid 19. They will be glad to help explain.

No information, no learning process is going to be fixed and absolute. New info arises at a moment's notice requiring we adjust to it.

Look I get Thedimon sounds frightened of the uncertainty of the illness, but fear of uncertainty is irrational. Fearing what keeps changing is a waste of energy.

Adjusting to it and rolling with it, is what we all need to do. It aint easy but most of us do. The ones that dig in their heels, refuse to adapt and create theories and excuses to justify sticking their head in the sand won't make what's coming go away and what's coming are many more viruses. Its just part of life. Those viruses have always been developing and coming and we deal with them.

 

Yep.

You got that backwards. I do not support forcing you to put a mask on or to inject something into your body in the name of keeping me safe. You, on the other hand, support the government invading other citizens privacy and autonomy in the name of keeping you safe. You support authoritarianism, not me!

I’m sorry, but an invasive medical procedure, or invasive mandates to individuals that involves their physical faces can not be called courtesy. Maybe in North Korea, not here.

I was actually trying to get a question answered in the last 5-6 pages of this thread.

If it’s about dna carrying data about pathogens, here:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210909124034.htm

But, I never claimed to be an expert. Again, I was trying to get a question answered for the past several pages. Experts don’t tend to run around asking questions.
The whole thing was brought up because you claimed immune system has no memory.

My whole argument about an mRNA vaccine always revolves around the fact that long term effects are not known and this is a new platform. I said there could be dangerous long term effects like ADE. The word “could” means a possibility.

 

So, your argument is that everyone should just shut up and do what they were told.
Sorry, I didn’t sign up for that.

 

I agree personal choice is the key. We are all subject to the consequences of what we eat, how much we exercise, how much sleep we get, and if we jump out of airplanes as recreation. Well, except for the consequences modern medicine can cover for in various ways. Like dialysis for diabetics, medications for heart disease, etc. Some people want others to mitigate risk for them instead of personally mitigating the risks they are averse to.

Since the pandemic began I’ve been fascinated with how people want to be safe by controlling other people’s behavior instead of their own. I remember a now banned member bashing people who wouldn’t wear a mask to protect others. Yet he was in the business of brewing—making alcohol that is responsible for more societal death and destruction than probably any other product or behavior in history. And he thought people should have the right to use that product, even though it harms third parties. Plus, as most others he wasn’t willing to take steps to protect his family from Covid, just strangers. Of course this has continued with vaccination. YOU must vaccinate to protect others, but obese folks who are Covid and (likely) influenza superspreaders can just carry on as if it doesn’t matter. It’s bizarre.

 

Don’t stop. With every post you demonstrate your hypocrisy. Please present evidence to back up this claim of yours.
“The very dynamics of B and T cell memory don't work for these vaccines to create indefinite memory in fact the exact opposite.”

Or stop criticizing others for not presenting enough evidence.

 

If the unvaccinated shouldn’t be in public neither should the obese. Simple as that. Obesity is in fact quite “contagious”, having both pathogenic and social contagion components. To claim otherwise is science denial. You sure you are experienced in psychology not knowing about social contagions?

Want to educate yourself before you make more gaffs like being ignorant of things you accuse others of being ignorant of? Here you go.
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?posts/1072968705/

 

Yes I do.

What do you mean of course not? What do you know about my knowledge? I’m not the one repeatedly making false statements about biology here. You are.

@Thedimon is researching by asking questions. And he was able to point out a facet of immunology you were completely unaware of by doing his own research. Perhaps it’s time for you to stop pontificating on subjects you aren’t equipped to understand.

 

No one said medicine is perfect. The responses have been to specific scenarios that were explained do not exist because the assumption they could is not possible and reflects a false assumption.