Netenyahu to define Israel as a Jewish state

I've just been listening to the contemporary narratives of jewish arabs. They articulate that your version is twisted and inclined towards the racist position in itself. Al Jazeera can be brilliant at times. Tune in.

 

the racists are the Arabs who implemented Nuremberg-like laws upon the Jews of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Algeria.

 

Not according to those who were there. Who to believe ? On-the-spot jewish arabs ? Ronstar ? Such a toughie.

 

so you deny that Iraq, Egypt, and Syria passed Nuremberg-like laws against Jews, that stripped them of their property, bank accounts, and ability to hold jobs?

 

Zionism has a lot to answer for. So say the jewish arabs affected.

 

Israel saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arab Jews and gave them a home.

after the Arab Muslims passed Nuremberg Laws against their Jewish populations.

 

Their lives didn't need saving before the scourge of Zionism.

Your narrative is suffering some temporal confusion.

 

Jews suffered pogroms, massacres, on a frequent basis in the Arab world, long before Hertzl was born.

The Arab world needs to learn a thing or two about tolerance.

 

Jews have suffered persecution and pogroms throughout history, prior to, and after Hertzl but not exclusively so and not exclusively in the Arab world. But hey, Arabs bad, Jews good. The post 1948 exodus you previously banged on about is also not the black and white issue you suggest on the basis moon alluded to. Moreover, the issue is compounded further in that many Jews upped sticks on their own volition:

"Iraqi-born Ran Cohen, a former member of the Knesset, said: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee. I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee". Yemeni-born Yisrael Yeshayahu, former Knesset speaker, Labor Party, stated: "We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations." And Iraqi-born Shlomo Hillel, also a former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party, claimed: "I do not regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."[12]

Historian Tom Segev stated: "Deciding to emigrate to Israel was often a very personal decision. It was based on the particular circumstances of the individual's life. They were not all poor, or 'dwellers in dark caves and smoking pits.' Nor were they always subject to persecution, repression or discrimination in their native lands. They emigrated for a variety of reasons, depending on the country, the time, the community, and the person."[185][better source needed]

Iraqi-born Israeli historian Avi Shlaim, speaking of the wave of Iraqi Jewish migration to Israel, concludes that, even though Iraqi Jews were "victims of the Israeli-Arab conflict", Iraqi Jews aren't refugees, saying that "nobody expelled us from Iraq, nobody told us that we were unwanted."[186] He restated that case in a review of Martin Gilbert's book, In Ishmael’s House.[187]

Yehuda Shenhav has criticized the analogy between Jewish emigration from Arab countries and the Palestinian Arab exodus. He also says "The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation." He has stated that "the campaign's proponents hope their efforts will prevent conferral of what is called a 'right of return' on Palestinians, and reduce the size of the compensation Israel is liable to be asked to pay in exchange for Palestinian property appropriated by the state guardian of 'lost' assets."[188]

Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath has rejected the comparison, arguing that while there is a superficial similarity, the ideological and historical significance of the two population movements are entirely different. Porath points out that the immigration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was the "fulfilment of a national dream". He also argues that the achievement of this Zionist goal was only made possible through the endeavors of the Jewish Agency's agents, teachers, and instructors working in various Arab countries since the 1930s. Porath contrasts this with the Palestinian Arabs' flight of 1948 as completely different. He describes the outcome of the Palestinian's flight as an "unwanted national calamity" that was accompanied by "unending personal tragedies". The result was "the collapse of the Palestinian community, the fragmentation of a people, and the loss of a country that had in the past been mostly Arabic-speaking and Islamic. "[189]

Palestinian politician Hanan Ashrawi has argued that Jews from Arab lands are not refugees at all and that Israel is using their claims in order to counterbalance to those of Palestinian refugees against it.[190] Ashrawi said that “If Israel is their homeland, then they are not ‘refugees’; they are emigrants who returned either voluntarily or due to a political decision.”[190]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

 

when you live in a land that has passed Nuremberg Laws against you, taken your property, taken your bank accounts, forbidden you from working in many fields, and stood watch as your communities are massacred, you are indeed a refugee from persecution when you move to another state.

 

Nicely put.

 

There is no doubt that Syria, Egypt, Algeria, and Iraq passed Nuremberg Laws against their Jews.

There should be no doubt why soo many Jews left.

If The Arab world treated their Jews with respect and tolerance, most Jews woulld not have left.

Just like how the vast majority of North American Jews have not come to Israel, as we are treated with respect.

 

ill keep it simple for you, nobody can prove that jewish ppl are the lineal descendants of Israel, because they arent.

 

most likely ??

good scholarly journalism there pal.

 

North America has not suffered a synthetic State of ethnic cleansers imposed upon its sovereign territory.

 

neither did Iraq, Syria, Egypt, or Algeria, and yet they still applied Nuremberg Laws against their Jews.

 

The first comment which came to my mind reading the title of this threat was ...

So what?

[Living in Italy, I'm a bit used to hear about a "Catholic State", even if I'm Protestant, so ...].

 

I'm patient and tolerant with others ...

Just to leave this "Hollywood attitude" [I missed only to comment your post saying "predictable sentence!" or something like that]:

the core of the debate is about the right of a state to define itself in a way or an other. This, from an institutional perspective is not a so clear and easy matter.

In fact, taking the Italian Constitution, we discover that Italy is founded on job with a clear influence of the communists and the socialists taking part to the constitutional assembly.

But sovereignty [our Constitution says] belongs to People. AH! So also to whom don't work, so the Republic is not based only on workers ...

At the end the definition of the identity of a state in its own Constitution is pivotal from an institutional perspective, but not that important with reference to reality of daily life.

I remember that in occasion of the composition of the base chart of the European Union the Papacy complained that they didn't put the Christian Roots of Europe in evidence. So what?

But that "so what" is valid also in the opposite sense.

If EU representatives in one of the two locations of EU parliament [yes! EU parliament is a nomad assembly! Don't ask me why!] decided to put in evidence the Christian roots of EU no one in Italy or Germany or Spain would have complained. May be in France ...

 

MOD Edit - Off Topic

As a general question, how does Netanyahu's election gamble square with international law ? Which elements of his neo-apartheid gambit are prosecutable under Israeli and international law ?

 

Jonah I challenge the contents of your word.. In a response to me your words demanded I prove all Jewish people today are not converted to Judaism.

Therefore It continues to be your contention we Jews are not descended from Hebrews and Israelites but are ALL not just some of us converts.

Your words then asked me to prove your assertion that all Jews are c onverts was wrong inferring until I can prove you wrong you can continue to make that false allegation and pass it off as a fact to justify arguing all Jews today are converts and therefore have no historic connection to Israel.

In regards that " all Jews are converts" allegation Ovadia then responded with these words:

"'Its not speculation, if each jewish group separated in the diaspora shares more in common genetically with each other than their host populations, they are obviously of jewish (hebraic) origin. Each group is Jewish yet cluster the closest on genetic plots. The only people that believe they are descendants of 'edom' are black hebrew israelites and the moorish science temple, both cults. Hardly the majority of people."

You then stated

"So you are now calling other faiths cults in a derogatory manner."

Please show one word in the above that is derogatory.

Nothing in what Ovadia said was derogatory.

Not one word insults or degrades and in fact the description of the people you refer to who do not call themselves Jewish people or identify themselves as Jewish people repeats the manner in which these very people you asked to be depicted.

Not only is your assertion he was derogatory false as evidenced by the lack of any insult in his words, but you further demonstrate a lack of logic in that you refer to people who do not consider themselves Jewish and never did as if this proves all Jews are converts. It of course does not but for some reason now you have reintroduced that defective inference over 7 times in your responses and each time fail to explain how a non Jew proves a Jew is a converted Jew and not a Jew descended from Israelites or Hebrews.

Not once have you provided a shred of evidence to repudiate the blood studies provided to you which prove you wrong but instead, you choose to ignore them and repeat the same allegation proven untrue by those blood studies but now go further with your response to me suggesting I have t prove your all Jews are converts allegation wrong but refusing to deal with the blood tests, the very proof that evidences your error.

Your decision to keep making false allegations after they were repudiated and refuse to debate or respond to the responses, only serves to illustrate your lack of credibility and refusal to debate.

You then stated:

"Many ppl think judaism is a cult, christianity too."

And so? If more than one person actually agrees with you does this mean automatically what you said is true?

.However it didn't seem you were finished because you then stated:

"Jewish ppl, whether they cluster or not is irrelevant to being an Isra"elite, totally. For all we know they could cluster around Esau! "

What is interesting Jonah is you call both Judaism and Christianity cults but not Islam. Why the omission?.

You now refer to the fact that Jewish people share a collective identity as "clustering". Do you use the same analogy with Muslims? do you consider what they do in Mecca for example when they pray at the Hoy site clustering or is that only limited to Jewish people?

More to the point after making that comment you then ended your sentence with an exclamation mark, presumably indicating you are screaming or angry telling Jewish people to cluster around Esau. Why?

What was the intent of the last sentence keeping in mind you came on this board responding to Ovadia accusing him of being derogatory?

Could it be you are engaging in the very derogatory wording you claim Ovadia was?

 

What does any of the above post have to do with Netanyahu's sleazy gamble on extremist support for any ' jewish ' State ?

Why must this thread be bombarded with half-assed pseudo-religious rhetoric with no connection to the topic other than the term ' jewish ' ?

 

They don't follow edomite customs and never have had edomite traditions or lineage. They are obviously of hebraic descent. The original jews of the diaspora even had full hebrew names. Rashi (Shlomo Yithaki) Maimonides (Moshe ben Maimon) Gamaliel the Elder, Simeon ben Hillel, etc. They knew hebrew and aramaic. And so do their descendants. Their genealogies trace back to judean jews (specifically even to the sanhedrin) and babylonian exiles (israelites) How do you explain this?

And yes, Moorish Science is a cult and a hate group, they praise hitler and deny the holocaust (very logical ). The Black Hebrew Israelites are also a cult and are also a hate group, they spew anti-semitism and other racism all the time. They dress up in silly outfits and shout racial slurs in time square. Definitely a cult.

 

It is VERY true that some jews from islamic lands are not refugees. This is what I have been saying all along. Although many are refugees. But what you just posted proves that we were zionists before the farhud or other pogroms, and that zionism was common to all jews throughout the world for centuries. As they say in passover, next year in jerusalem. This phrase has been repeated for centuries upon centuries. Zion is also hebrew for Jerusalem. Mizrahim, we were zionists before Herzl or even Yehuda Alkalai (sfaradi)

 

No we didn't at large. We were known as the adot haMizraH (communities of the east) in hebrew. We were jewish. We are not 'arab jews' anymore than assyrians and chaldeans (which is also an ethnicity and religion) are "arab assyrians" or "arab chaldeans." "Arab Jew" today is a term used by a few anti-zionist academics who try to strip us of our heritage and redefine jewish as religion only. Genetics refute their claims as does history and linguistics. Speaking arabic does not make one arab, if it did, kurds would be arab since they also speak arabic in Iraq and Syria. Berbers are not arab either.

Anti-zionists even try to call moroccan jews "arab jews" even though they are from a berber country! And many moroccan jews are sefaradim, meaning they come from europe. Plenty of north african jews from morocco, tunisia, algeria and egypt, know a variety of languages, some don't even speak arabic, and the arabic they did know was called 'judeo-arabic' a dialect which was written in hebrew/aramaic characters.. Some are francophones and ladino speakers as well. MANY tunisian jews speak french. And today, they all speak hebrew as the main jewish language, even in north africa, in addition to french or darija (moroccan arabic).

My ancestors from Iraq spoke hebrew, neo-aramaic, and judeo-arabic. We weren't arabs, although we were arabized in culture to a certain extent. If black people in the US speak english does that make them european? Nope. Iraqi jews, we are and always were called "bavlim" babylonian jews in hebrew because we descend from the jews who were taken to babylon by Nebuchadnezzar II. We predate the arab conquests of mesopotamia and we had our own communities. We also cluster closest with other jewish groups (especially georgian jews, iranian jews, armenian jews, etc.) which shows we are not arab or of arabian tribal ancestry. Iraqi arabs also don't know hebrew or aramaic, why would they? They are arabs. We are jews. Prior to Israel, we viewed ourselves as Iraqi, because we were Iraqi. That was our nationality. But we are not arabs. There is a huge difference. Just like chaldean christians from iraq are not arabs, but are iraqi.


The only jews who could legitimately be called "arab jews" are arabian converts to judaism. Some merged with the yemenite community, of course not all yemenites are heavily mixed with arabian blood, some are though. But its important to remember that yemenite jews preserved and still speak and read the most ancient pronunciation of hebrew, so they are definately hebrews. Yemenite arabs don't even know hebrew or aramiac.

 

There were plenty of proud arab jews before the scourge of Zionism. Zionism polarized people. It's a racist doctrine. Netanyahu plans another level of apartheid.