Not happy with how Brexit is going

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by alexa, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female

    Ok I will give you the quote from the LSE

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018...exit-is-the-wrong-diagnosis-of-a-real-crisis/

    It is a good article on Brexit being the wrong answer to a real problem - that problem being Neo Liberalism....and do we even have the state apparatus to sort it out!!!
     
  2. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The purpose of the European Union was to make a permanent political entity of what was a simple economic agreement amongst European nations regarding (mostly) trade policies. It was key to rebuilding Europe that had been shattered by WW2.

    The EU is way beyond that historical point in time. It took one step further and embarked upon making a democracy that mirrors that of the US. That is, it is tripartite: Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Moreover, it has the muscle of a population much larger than the US in terms of Consumer Demand. Which the UK will now be obliged to forsake.

    For reasons that some people (including myself) think imbeciIic, the UK has veered away from that ideal. Meaning its need for a pseudo-independence has been bought by a lower economic standard that will most certainly be the outcome.

    Time will tell ...
     
  3. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,760
    Likes Received:
    180
    Trophy Points:
    63
    No, it isn't.

    What does the EU have in common with asymmetric federalism. If you don't mean asymmetric federalism, then what do you mean?

    You need to go into details. You seem to be comparing the EU to the US.

    Why do you consider the EU to be an asymmetrical political entity?

    It isn't anything like the US.
     
  4. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    7,160
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Federalism? The EU is a treaty organisation of 27 nations and has nothing to do with US federalism!
    I guess the original Franco-German concept has skewed itself in favour of Germany...in simple terms they hold the purse strings they call the tune. Germany' pre-eminemt partially due to the moribund state of France's government and its economy, southern European debt and the ambivalence of the UK. Taking your thought about the US though, it sees itself as having a role on the world stage - it has styled itself as leader of the free world (whatever the fcuk that is supposed to mean) it plays a major role in the UN and fights wars and promotes this idea of "democracy"; the Germans though are a pragmatic nation and although they are the economic power house of the EU they don't take upon themselves that similar international role - sort of like a shy hegemon. In other words the EU lacks to a degree the front of house face of a lead country - unlike Roosevelt, Germany is "speak softly and carry a big wallet". The EU Commission has this role but the Commission is not a country it is a secretariat; it has no army or economy but it represents the EU27 albeit with Germany as its paymaster. To me the asymmetry is in the political and economic weight that Germany has within the European Commission in respect to the other nations but is not willing to have skin in the game.
     
  5. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    7,160
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    and that's the crux of it...I agree with you...and everything else at the moment is just conjecture and economic algorithmic modelling.
     
  6. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    7,160
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    do you think Greece would agree with you on that?
     
  7. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,760
    Likes Received:
    180
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Which is why I asked you to clarify your meaning. When political asymetricism is used, it always applies to federalist states , such as the US. It doesn't really apply to the EU, which as you say, consists of 27 sovereign states.

    You're just muddying the waters.

    I've left out most you posted about the US as it's irrelevant.

    You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim Germany has too much power, then that that is has no power at all.

    Germany is not the paymaster of the EU commission, by the way, but in any case the EU commission do not run the EU.

    The EU is run by the EU Parliament which consists of the governments of the 28 members.
     
    The Don likes this.
  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Good point!

    What's been happening since the iron curtain dropped from around China? We've been awash with cheap-chinese manufactures. What has that done?

    My personal reflection and a true fact: I'm from central Massachusetts where the plastics industry provided jobs for a small community of 30/40 thousand people in the post-war years.

    That is, up until the 1990s when, suddenly, the Chinese plastic-products started invading the US. The plant where my parents worked is now razed and there is a parking lot in its place.

    The above is not a story of economic-advancement, but one of historical fatality. We (and that means more than just the US) are fully in the midst of an Age Change going from the Industrial Age to the Information Age. Which means what?

    It means that a high-school diploma is just not enough. A bonafide post-secondary training or full-education is necessary to assure one of a decent job.

    Which is the main reason that I keep harping about the fact that a post-secondary degree must be made available free, gratis and for nothing. Curiously, we are simply repeating the past.

    Yes, when the Industrial Age started in the middle of the 19th century, the US awoke to the fact that a secondary-schooling was necessary to get a good job in industry. But it took a good half-century for America to establish a fully-fledged secondary-schooling system across the country.

    We are going through another Age-Change and I am saying "Let's not take another half-century to make a post-secondary education free, gratis and for nothing" ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  9. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    7,160
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No I don't think I did...maybe you should read the comment again.
     
  10. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Nope.

    They have to learn the hard way ... but fortunately the rest of Europe has learned. It may have paid a high-price to do so.

    But it has learned that change must occur for the EU to provide a decent living to its half a billion constituents ...
     
  11. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    On the part of the Brits who seem to think that nothing-is-changing (the Queen is still in her palace).

    Everything is changing. Not on the way we work but with whom we work wherever in the world we work. Meaning that borders are useless, and only the ability to morph quickly in terms of a nation's competencies matter.

    Someone must explain to me why - out of desperation for talent - American industries are hiring Indians who have graduate degree that cost them nothing. But, in the US, such schooling is prohibitively expensive to anyone below a middle-class level ...
     
  12. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    7,160
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I totally agree with you. What I found interesting with the Greek scenario was the stance that Wolfgang Schäuble took when he warned Greece of it being unable to compete in the Eurozone and that they should be forced out of the EU. Which is a rather unusual stance bearing in mind the European ideal. Don’t get me wrong I would agreed with Schäuble but the effect may have been to build anti-German coalitions within the EU.
    The economic dominance of Germany within the EU post brexit may I think be one of the issues that the remaining members may have to consider in terms of how to counter-balance it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  13. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Germany's preponderance within the EU is likely to remain for some time, and for a simple reason.

    Germany is the only country in Europe that is able to furnish Euros to the EU central-bank (since it has no national debt), which thus loans the Euros to EU debtor-countries (and there are many) thus sustaining them economically. Germany's debt as a percent of GDP is around 61% and is the lowest of any large-GDP country in the EU. (See here.)

    That will not change for as long as EU economic activity remains tepid. Without Germany's help to the EU Central Bank to loan to debtor countries, most of those economies would be on the rocks. Of course, neither can that situation last forever.

    But it is in Germany's best interest to sustain the EU-economy. Which is a lesson that the UK has never seemed to have learned.

    (Britannia waives the rules ... ;^)
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  14. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,760
    Likes Received:
    180
    Trophy Points:
    63
    You definitely did. You also haven't answered what is a simple question.
    How will leaving the EU benefit the UK?
    In your own words.
     
  15. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    7,160
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh no I dittunt...
    Benefit...?? I'm not sure I see in that way...I don't like "large" government too many bureaucrats you know! All swishing about in their opulent offices wasting all that money...all grubbing around with snouts positively aquiver with anticipation at the prospect of red tape and tax payers mullah...bit like to the UK and this rather bothersome nanny state that we have! Bring back Maggie I say...she'll sort it out....apart from the fact that she's snuffed it!!
    Indeed I have doubts old boy....if indeed you are a boy? Old girl perhaps? Anyway in the spirit of today's gender interchangeability... I have my doubts old personage... I say, actually that's ageist and we can't have that as its not quite in the spirit of them dashed EU rules.....Okay.....So, I have my doubts personage of unspecified chronological durability (I think we're there now?) I have the distinct impression that the jolly old EU is an automobile accident in the offing.. I mean how can a bunch of disparate chaps and chappesses of varying origins, waistline and wallet sizes all co-exist in a harmonious state of Peter, Paul and Mary dreamland. All sounds rather fanciful don't you think? No as them yanks would say "better git while the gittins good"

    Oh yeah...there's also that stuff you hear being bandied about by the toiling classes you know that jolly good wheeze about more spondulicks for the jolly old NHS...what was it 300 gazzilion a day extra and benefits for all! More mullah for the sweaties oop north and kick out all those dashed johnny foreigners Britain for the British and....well....all sounds absolutely ooja-cum-spiff to me! Kick it into touch I say with a rousing round of Rule Britannia in full chorus!
     

Share This Page