Every society is an unequal society. The biggest problem with creating an equal society? Finding a god omniscient enough to judge our social worth.
Actually I agree with you. You may have noticed, however, that the neo-liberals and Corporate Powers were Remainers? We were EU members during this period, so the suggestion that EU protects workers rights is undermined somewhat by your assertion of Thatcher's decimation. But why do you believe that an MEP is better able to represent workers than an MP? .
I said: Not just English speaking but English law and jurisdiction. And not just the US but the Commonwealth and the Middle East.. To which you said: Blah, blah, blah, blather ... Perhaps you could rephrase your response?
We must look after the rich and poor equally. Not the poor over the rich or the rich over the poor. We don't offer financial equality in this country, we offer social equality. Equality in the yes of the law. And the UK is not to be run in the exclusive interests of Scotland. That is not social equality either. In order for oil revenues not to be wasted, simply tax them less. The less they take, the less they waste. I do feel a loyalty to the Commonwealth that surpasses their economic advantage. One that I simply don't share for the Germans, and don't really share for the Spanish or Irish or French either. I won't take the sides of those who tried to kill my parents over those who tried to save them from their would be killers and slavers. No F'in way mate. No way. In fact the basic problem is this, I don't self identify as European. I don't look to Europe and think to myself... I want to be more like them. Closer to them. I am related to them. I look to the history of my nation for example and find only examples of European union that people have been consistently willing to die to prevent. It beggars belief. It really does. We will be lucky to get out of this without a war. I will be wanting America, Russia and the Commonwealth onside for that war. Not "The EU". Who I will be wanting to get nuked in that war. Loyalty. That's what all this is about. Not money, not politics, just loyalty.
The power-crazy parasites of Brussels are really gonna make us suffer for Brexit so that other member states don't get the same idea.
Worthy of a separate thread - crosses into the labour automation issue. I'll engage on it of you open the thread.
It is the choice of the EU worker as a response to Brexit. Very much to do with the imposition of Brexit given that is what has caused this. Right. Your belief is that British workers are worth more than EU workers. Why were you going on before about replacing them with Black workers and calling people racist who you believed preferred white EU workers to the Black ones you were intending on putting in? White Supremacists I believe you were calling the poster who pointed out as is known that the NHS is going to suffer massively from Brexit - mind you not to worry, England is giving up on its NHS anyway. Won't make much difference. Long long before Brexit the right blamed immigrants for taking away jobs and houses. It is the tactic which has always been used in recession. Get people blaming the other, then there is no need to deal with the issue. Your problem I gather is just to do with East Europeans, Roma and such - certainly not to do with Western Europeans who are not cheap labour. People come here, work at the jobs no one else wants to do and then try and get on. British people have the same rights to go and work in other countries. This was said in context of you wanting EU migrants out of the UK because they were cheap labour to be replaced with I have to imagine you believe is expensive African Labour. The article I linked to illustrated how large a part of our black population at the moment comes from the EU not any African country. WTF are you talking about. The Mail was most certainly on about immigration for years. Did you not suggest that immigration was not what this was about because you were going to replace all these white EU people with back commonweath people and anyone who supported white EU people was a racist of White Nationalist proportion because they only reason they could say that was because they did not want all the black people you had in mind to replace them - being even cheaper labour no doubt. Now my day calls I have no more time at the moment.
(psssst - Irish are Commonwealth) Well of course, many also died trying to prevent the British Empire. I suppose the difference now is that Empire devolved to the Commonwealth, whilst the EU is attempting to involve into a singular nation-state. So yes, it will be unique in history to manage to accomplish this without a war. Even the US ended up in a very costly civil war. One might cite the federation of Australian states but that was the same event that devolved from Empire. I'm sure you don't mean that. I think we would all prefer to be well out of any violence that may arise on the continent.
True enough - it is up to each society to mend its own ills towards achieving Societal Justice. We once believed in "gods" (plural). Which worked just fine for the Roman Empire that lasted about four centuries. I kindasorta think that we should not indulge in that archaic notion nowadays ...
Having the right to work in Romania isn't worth much. It isn't worth as much as say... having the right to work in the UK. And just because a thousand UK subject's wish to work in Romania doesn't mean 500,000 of Romanians can come here in return. This is a moronic and **** deal. Not even my expat friends living and working in Romania agree with it. Only a fool would make equal exchange for this. Yes the rich and well paid may come here to live. They are welcome with open arms. Come... let us tax you. Sure they take up houses, but they bring in more than they take. So they are welcome here, and if we go abroad and do the same thing, we will be welcome there. No extra deals required when you are already being welcomed with open arms.
I have found that many societies created the greatest ills of all in the name of social justice. Hitler and Stalin are springing to mind. I'm sure we could find some Roman examples if we tried. Since we don't believe in gods any more, all we can expect from social justice, is the social justice of those who rule. Which isn't me. And isn't you. And indeed for almost all of us entirely, isn't us. So no thanks. I'll make my own. Since there is no God, there is no system of social justice that I will accept over my own. Because political equality. My judgement is worth equal to any others.
Romania has been in "deep sneakers" economically virtually from the day it got rid of the Ceausescus. This latest EU-recession obviously hasn't helped. Many eastern European countries are in the same fix, however. It is simply a matter of time and restoration of growth-GDP economies in the EU. That ball has started rolling again, so there is good hope it will restore economic vitality across a market-population of more than 730 million consumers. I insist on that number, because - despite British myopia - economic strength lies first and foremost in the number of consumers within an market-economy. It is in that fact that a market-economy fundamentally derives its economic strength. But, one must be patient. Neither Rome nor Romania was made in a day ...
Last time I was there, Romania was booming. Awash with EU money. Awash with US money. That said, Roma women still try and rent themselves and even their children to me. Some area's will always be poor.
I mean any actual change to the legal landscape. No, I'm an immigrant myself. My issue is with the potential for social disorder by importing low-skilled workers. As I alluded, basic Corporate Social Responsibility 101 would rule out a UK company from doing this in any other country. That is for a very good, commercial reason - we only exist here by the permission of the locals and therefore they must benefit from our presence or we won't be tolerated. Privileging white, unskilled workers to skilled workers of colour is quintessentially racist. (eg there is an English language test exemption for EU nurses) That doesn't mean the claim is not justified at the moment. We are not talking insignificant numbers, this was not a popular issue before the big EU expansion. We voted 75% to go into the EEC. That massive swing shows a real problem since EU expansion. Eastern Europe, yes, not necessarily Roma. And its just the disparity between economic systems coupled with free movement. If we could hold the free trade open long enough without free movement, until the economies equalised and similar welfare and in-work benefits were available, then free movement could be opened up. Thats why Western Europe was never a big problem in this regard - who would want to leave rural France? There is no reason why we can't issue work visas. We didn't have fruit rotting in the fields prior to the EU expansion. OK. Thanks a lot for responding. Hope you have a great day.
No. America has less consumers than China but buys and sells more. The number of people is multiplied by the wealth of those people. How many resources they have to trade in exchange. 300 million loss making trades is 300 million times as bad as 1 loss making trade. Adding more people to a bad equation just makes it weaker. Hence the UK is very strong economically because it has 65 million rich people in it. 40% of EU exports but not 40% of the total population of the world. America and the EU are rich markets too. The kind we want.
This is quite an apt comparison, after the Black Death the labour shortages did serious harm to our economy. Fields went untilled and crops went unharvested, sheep went un-sheared and incomes from the wool trade and others fell sharply. Shortages in labour may indeed be made up for by improving wages in agriculture and other businesses but this leads to inflation making those wage increases counter productive and encourages even more cheap imports leading to farms and businesses going bust. Automation can cover some of the missing labour too but that will not make jobs for those who need them and will see smaller farms and businesses without the capitol to invest in expensive new machines get swallowed up or put out of business by those large often multinational ones who can. Farmers also face the worrying prospect of losing their EU subsidies which the government has only guaranteed to cover for the first 5 years.
Ha! Yes, touché. The peasants were better off, though (not that they wanted the plague to begin with).It does pose an interesting parallel, in that the talk of "economic wreakage" did not resonate with the working classes. Perhaps they did not see themselves participating in the fruits of a successful economy, anyway, so the status quo was unappealing. A good rationale for wage suppression and undercutting workers' rights. Not a good argument for workers. Indeed. Your point being?
Unfortunately this will just add to the already spiralling costs of healthcare and pour further scorn on the dubious claim that Brexit would ''save the NHS'' Training nurses and doctors is ruinously expensive especially when many nurses quit when they find that they are not suited to the job.Immigration from the EU and outside Europe plays a real part in keeping costs down.
Labourers were better off because they were allowed to leave the places they were born and move across the country to find better working conditions, however as serfdom is no longer a part of Britain's culture and most if not all improvements in working conditions have come from EU legislation and policy your point is fairly mute. My point is that smaller businesses going broke and large ones taking over only increases job losses and leads to a further widening between the haves and have nots. Which incidentally was one of the reasons the more deprived parts of the UK voted to leave the EU while the richer mainly Southern and more prosperous regions voted to remain.
Plays a big part in deferring those costs to the next generation more like. Kick the can down the road. All those immigrants will need NHS care of their own. All we are doing is making it worse for those who come after us. Adding to the problem for selfish personal gain. Deal with the problem. Treatment costs money. There are more available treatments than there is available money. Demand is infinite. Supply is not. Expectations must be managed as must be the finances. The government is **** at both these things. Provide for your own retirement. Ponzi schemes are not safe.
My working conditions have not improved during EU membership. I would suggest to you that they have in fact got notably worse. Wasting my time and money on pointless compliance. Paying more for worse tools. Paying more taxes than I used to. Less £ per hour to take home. Qualifications now required for casual labour.
Hmmm. many immigrants return home in later life to retire with their hard earned savings and take advantage of the lower cost of living in those places. You make a good point for the further privatisation of healthcare leading to insurance companies taking money out of the system. See the USA for proof of what can happen when you go down that road. Even some of the more conservative thinkers there are now arguing for a more socialised healthcare system.
It is true that many of the health and safety regulations are expensive and often pointless but improvements such as minimum wages legislation and improved working conditions such as the smoking ban have made things better for large numbers of British workers.
An insurance company already takes the most out of the system here. The difference is in America, it doesn't have a monopoly. Insurance is socialised healthcare. Be it Nationally or privately operated, it is the act of insuring collectively that is social, not which particular insurer we chose to use. NHS is popular hare and politically totemic. Expect all of us to be thrown off a cliff in tribute to it eventually. But it's Ponzi scheme. Don't count on it being there. Take example from Greece. All this will end when people decide to stop lending to us.
I'm a smoker. So the smoking ban hasn't improved my working conditions at all. Far from it. Minimum wage legislature doesn't affect my take home pay because I get paid by the day/job and not by the hour. A day that has now got longer because my weedkiller is fail. Because my vacuum cleaner is fail. And now they include contributions for holiday pay and pension pay in the blurb on the end of my payslip, but the take home is the same. Faux employment rights. Whoopdy doo.
