. Rebuttal of The Second Wave in continuation . The second wave of emigration Why did you not tell your readers the full story, HBendor, that already, way before November 1947, Ben-Gurion and his Consultancy had foreseen the need for the transfer of the Arabs from what was to become Israel so as to solve the Problem i.e. the demographic ratio of Jews to Arabs which Ben-Gurion euphemistically referred to sideways in June and again in December 1947 as our national future. Why did you leave THAT out, HBendor? Because it smudged your Emigration Myth perhaps? So cut the bleeding heart approach. It doesnt wash. And regarding the Jews pleading en masse with the Palestinians to remain, well that was trashed in my previous post. Remember the Morris reference from that previous post. Brace yourself: # Haifa (page 191): Morris lists Haifa as one of the five Palestinian settlements out of the 400+ that were depopulated of Arabs in 1948/49, to which Arab orders contributed. But the Arab flight was also contributed to in a big way by the Zionist military: The Haganah broadcasts called on the populace to evacuate the women, the children and the old immediately, and send them to a safe haven. [Ref: The Conquest of Haifa- HA 80\54\1]. They were forever denied the right to return by Israel. [See also Page 240 below] HBendor calls that emigration # Page 207: The Haganah attacked Balad ash Sheikh on 24 April and Tira during the following two days. Whether the Haganah intended to trigger the evacuation of Balad al Sheik is unclear, but the method of attack . seems to have been designed to achieve this. The fleeing residents were forever denied the right to return by Israel. HBendor calls that emigration. # Jaffa (page 213): The control and ranging of (the Irgun) the IZLs (mortar) fire were at best amateur the objectives of the three-day barrage were clear: to cause chaos among the civilian population in order to create a mass flight. It should be made clear that IZL attack with mortars was indiscriminate and designed to create panic amongst the civilians. (Page 214) Notwithstanding the British retaliation against the IZL, the inhabitants of the city and the surrounding villages fled. The fleeing residents were forever denied the right to return by Israel. They were joined by 700 000 other refugees. HBendor calls that emigration. And now for the most nauseating Zionist aggression during the entire period Deir Yassim: Wiki: On January 20, 1948, the villagers (of Deir Yassin) met leaders of the (nearby Jewish) Givat Shaul community to form a peace pact. The Deir Yassin villagers agreed to inform Givat Shaul should Palestinian militiamen appear in the village, by hanging out certain types of laundry during the day. Yoma Ben-Sasson, Haganah commander in Givat Shaul, said after the village (Deir Yassin) had been captured that, "there was not even one incident between Deir Yassin and the Jews." On April 9, 1948 around 120 fighters from the Irgun Zevai Leumi (Menachem Begin was the organisations leader at the time) and Lohamei Herut Israel Zionist paramilitary groups attacked Deir Yassin. Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the battle for the village, including women and childrensome were shot, while others died when hand grenades were thrown into their homes. Several villagers were taken prisoner and may have been killed after being paraded through the streets of West Jerusalem, though accounts vary. # Page 183: Yamani (an eyewitness) wrote: I cannot justify this action by the Haganah. I dont know whether there was justification for the assault and the killing of so many Arabs. The flight of the woman and children made a bad impression on me. Those who fled were denied any right of return by Israel. HBendor calls that emigration # Page 240: In Haifa, noted Ben-Gurion noted, news of Deir Yassin had propelled Muslims into flight. Those who fled were denied any right of return by Israel. HBendor calls that emigration Page 265: Undoubtable, as understood by the IDF intelligence, the most single important factor in the exodus of April-June was Jewish attack. Those who partook in that exodus were denied any right of return by Israel. HBendor calls that emigration -------------------------------------------------------------- And remember that this all started when HBendor claimed that the reason for the departing of Jews from Arab countries (usually long after 194 was personally elected emigration. HBendor tried to fool us that that was comparable to what is described above. I disagreed. I rest my case. ....(Wave 3 "emigration") to be continued ....
Shocker: Yasser Arafat’s PLO successor, head of Palestinian Authority, praises Hitler’s favorite Arab Muslim ally http://shoebat.com/2013/01/05/shock...ty-praises-hitlers-favorite-arab-muslim-ally/
Don't waste your time for you have already lost... Klipkap calls this INTEGRATION Arab Terrorism since 1920 updated July 3, 2008 The first Arab sponsored terrorist attack upon Jews occurred in 1920, long before the establishment of Israel and long before there were any so-called Palestinians. In 1929 Arab mobs massacred over 100 Jews, 67 of them in 1929 Hebron massacre alone, an ancient community where Jews lived among arabs peacefully for centuries. Many of the corpses were mutilated by arabs. Eighty years later, the death toll from Arab terrorism in Israel continues to grow. In September of 2002, I began the preparation of a listing of all victims of Arab terrorists in Israel. I did this because I was unable to find a comprehensive listing of all terrorist attacks in Israel and so, I made one myself. A good bit of the information contained here comes from Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but sadly, the various listings available there do not include all terrorist attacks in Israel. Additional attacks have been added to original list and there are many more to be added. I have been unable to locate details concerning the terrorist attacks from 1920 through 1948 perpetuated upon residents of Mandatory Palestine and, from 1948 through 1952, upon the residents of the State of Israel. However, the following statistics were provided by the National Insurance Institute and recently posted by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs: Year Number killed 1920 9 1921 24 1922 5 1923 0 1924 4 1925 1 1926 1 1927 1 1928 0 1929 119 1920s total = 164 Year Number killed 1930 0 1931 2 1932 4 1933 0 1934 0 1935 1 1936 44 1937 10 1938 94 1939 26 1930s total = 181 Year Number killed 1940 137 1941 14 1942 4 1943 1 1944 3 1945 1 1946 28 1947 152 1948 379 1949 37 1940s total = 756 Year Number killed 1950 52 1951 41 1952 40 1953 46 1954 41 1955 30 1956 53 1957 19 1958 15 1959 10 1950s total = 347 I have continued to maintain and update this listing as these atrocities continue to occur and innocent people continue to fall victim to such horrors. For a complete list of Arab Terrorism from August 23, 1029 - April 09, 2008 practically on a daily basis, Please click here to evaluate the convoluted INTEGRATION our friend from Spain wants to feed the naive and gullibles. http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm
klipkap Gelukkige nuwe jaar I hope you learned an additional microscopic thing the Jewish people have endured while you play upmanship.
Bad .... very transparent Strawman, HBendor. It shows perfectly that you cannot support your contention that the Second Wave of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by the Zionists was simply "Emigration". To suggest that such brutal attacks such as Deir Yassin cause "emigration" is too sick for words. But your failure to stay on topic proves the point. I am not even going to bother to show you how your so-called "Emigration" during the Third Wave was in fact just more of the same threats, fear and direct expulsion practised by the Zionist militia and terrorist organisations. It is already crystal clear to any reader who respects facts, logic and reason. Yet you claim that "Klipkap has already lost" **CLANG** Readers, In a month or three HBendor will return claiming that his "Emigration Myth" withstood all attempts to refute it and he emerged supremely victorious. It happens every time after he takes the Big Strawman escape route.
En 'n Gellukige Nuwe Jaar vir jou ook, HBendor. En vir jou familie. Mag jy hierdie jaar die verskil tussen gesonde redeneering en bevooroordeelde verkrampte veerhaaltjies einteindelik verstaan.
Joseph Katz, no less!! Shmuel Katz's son. There is a debate on another thread using the same Katz and Commentary Magazine evidence. The credibility of Katz Snr and of Commentary Magazine is tested there. I provide a copy below for your education and enjoyment.
Was that a rebuttal, Try_This? OK, I can see that I am going to have to do this all over again to show you that Chinese whisper circular references have no value. I have no intention of doing them all. That was fully accomplished years ago. Wheres the verifiable reference that you claim, Try_This. Oh, you mean the Ad Difaa report of 6th September 1954, do you? Off you go and try to verify it. I can tell you exactly where the trail stops. It dies at a Samuel (Shmuel) Katz book Battleground (NY: Bantam Books, 1985). There is no evidence back to source. And so it is which most of your quotes. They die with Shmuel Katz. Go check for yourself (it takes a while). The quote supposedly attributed to Habib dies at the same place (different page). Likewise that of Sada al-Janub; and the Jordanian Newspaper Filastin, (February 19, 1949) quote also disappears there. And dead trails are just so unsatisfactory, arent they, Try_This? So suspicious. Now just because the links die before reaching a source does not mean that they are invalid. It just means that they are non-verifiable and depend on the credibility of the author to ameliorate the suspicion. So let us test the credibility of Katz and Commentary Magazine and its quoted article. Oh, by the way, I noticed that you picked amongst the Commentary magazine quotes for those that you wished to present. And we can test this credibility of Katz and Commentary Magazine by evaluating the quotes where we CAN find the source or which HAVE been tested against verifiable historical evidence. Is that fair enough, Try_This? Oh, and I hope you dont mind if I include some Katz/Commentary proofs that you chose not to quote. So off we go to your provided reference. OOOPPSS!!! Guess what. C Mag has withdrawn the page. Didnt you check when you made that cut-and-paste from some Zionist web site participating in that circular referencing, Try_This? But dont worry; there is a preserved copy here: http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Refugees.asp . I have chosen to test the three most viral of the CM quotes; those that feature on just about every Zionist web site addressing the Arab Nakba. TEST 1: "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem." - - Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949 [This Commentary Magazine quote originates from Katzs book as you can see here: http://www.peaceforourtime.org.uk/page141.html ] As Khalil posted earlier in this thread, if the Arab leaders were issuing orders, there should have been a strong trail of evidence. In those days the way that administrations and even the Haganah got messages to large numbers of people was by means of broadcasts on the local radio stations. Luckily (?) the BBC was monitoring all broadcasts in the area from their base in Cyprus. . It seems that Katz had found evidence for this. Lets test his claim. In fact it had alreqady been tested a long time ago. You can find results of the test done by Erskine Childers here (click) He went through the entire Cyprus broadcast archive for the period. You really should try to read all of it, Try_This. Did the BBC simply do a poor monitoring job? Here is Walid Khalidi from the same reference: Based on these first-hand investigations I cannot see how anyone could conclude other than that Shmuel Katz made up the story about the Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949 records purporting to show that the Arab leadership encouraged the Palestinian flight. Let's be honest. He lied. TEST 2: "The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile." - Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948" Lucky for us this claim was also investigated, here (click) TEST3: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." - The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948 Here is what a reading of the full Economist article revealed (same as previous referenced source): I put it to you that both Shmuel Katz and Commentary Magazine failed our credibility test abominably!! All of their dead sources can therefore also be tossed on the trash heap. Try_This, these proofs and a host more were supplied over five years ago by Ashley Kennedy. I was stunned when I read them but I was even more stunned when a few weeks after she had obliterated all Commentary credibility, the same crap was posted again by Abu Afak and Moshe3. And you have continued with that debunked chorus. I am glad that you like contests, Try_This. MYTH BUSTED!!! But all of these test were in fact unnecessary. The foremost Israeli archive historiographer, Benny Morris, has concluded from many years of study that in only five cases was the most direct cause for the depopulation of 400+ Arab settlements, the instructions to leave them by the Arab leadership. I repeat - in only 5 out of 400+ cases. If the official Israeli archives show this, why are we pursuing dead claims to the contrary? Oh, I see why. Try-This has offered a rebuttal of Moris' published conclusion. I will address that next. .... (to be continued) ....
Apologies .... here is the Forum link to the above: http://www.politicalforum.com/debat...stinians-leave-1948-war-7.html#post1062145230 HBendor, I trust that you can understand why I was not willing to address your quotes, given the results of these tests.
LOL - That's what losers do , self delusion /-kidding themselves , that they've won when they've lost . typical Yiddishe thinking. HAPPY NEW YEAR - GOOD HEALTH TO BOTH OF YOU + yours. ..... ....
You are not only the master of 'MYTHS' but also DEFLECTION... Answer my post first and foremost then you can use all your pejorative... But you won't
LOL HBendor. You really do insist on trying all of the wriggles, don't you? Why do I say that? # I bust your myth just so good that the great majority of the depopulations of Palestinian settlements were due to what you scandalously claimed was "Emigration". # I showed how it was driven by flight because of fear of being on the receiving end of the Zionist militia (including Zionist radio propaganda) plus physical actual expulsions. # I showed you that the departure of the rich by own choice was but a drop in the ocean compared to the ethnic cleansing ... in fact you agreed to that in your own post!! # I showed you the disgustingly brutal role of the various Zionist terrorist organisations in the 1st and 2nd waves of ethnic cleansing - terrorist in the true sense of the word - including the war crimes at Deir Yassin (and there were others - want to discuss the death march from Lydah/Lod?) And what did you do? You had no response so you posted some fat strawman crap about Yasser Arafat ... just so clear to everyone that you were weaselling by pretending to respond on-topic. Sheez, HB, you must really believe that your readers are plain dumb. Your Emigration myth was just SOOOOO badly busted. And now you insist that I respond to that Arafat strawman. You are obviously just SOOOO out of ammunition, aren't you, HBendor? The Zionists were responsible for the depopulation of all but 5 of the Palestinian settlements. Learn to live with those hard verifiable facts on fully documented archival record. Walk it off HB and learn to face reality. You then offer some untraceable newspaper references, largely by Katz and compiled by Commentary Magazine, and you pretend that the mountain of evidence to the contrary as contained in the official Israeli archives is thereby somehow miraculously countered. Not only that, but I then utterly destroyed the credibility of your sources (Katz, Katz, and Commentary Magazine) which pretended to show that those hard statistics somehow did not matter, by showing how those claims of theirs which could actually be traced to source were blatant lies or cherry-picking partial quotations. And after that resounding thumping, you pretend that your position has sailed through unsullied!!! As my other thread noted, you Zionist apologists sure demand some very special debating privileges in order just to keep your noses above water.. .
As a S. African you are using words that are still ringing in your ears... There was not a National movement to uproot Arabs from their land... the big town dwellers left from their own volition and the rest followed... Deir Yassin was a rogue action against Arabs sitting on the main Road to Jerusalem targeting traffic... to say that this was ethnic cleansing is also inadequate... These rogue groups do not exist for 65 years already, but you find it convenient to illustrate your 'Damming Israel' posts at every opportunity. **CLANG** If 'has already lost' is considered too much for you, I will change it right away with 'NEVER WON A DEBATE' Well I am not you and I do not care to carry a list of debates with dates and numbers, I write for the need of the moment, for a retort, but everything I write I have lived... you are a stranger poking his nose at some foreign country with a viciousness of someone that had lost his wife and child... Grow up and stay on facts not fiction.
Isnt that just the most convincing response that you have ever seen, Readers. I feel after years of study careful construction of facts, logic and reasoning - I have been totally overwhelmed by its eloquence and factual incisiveness. Truly the work of a master on Middle East affairs.
Here we have HBendor toeing the Party line. The Zionists want to pretend that when they accepted UNGA Resolution 181 in 1947 they knew full well that their slender population majority in the territory designated to become the Jewish State would be obliterated within a decade or two at most, due to the extraordinary birth rate that the Palestinian mommies were long known for. But even so they had no plan to instigate a transfer of these Arabs off their national land. They knew that the Palestinians had been working those lands for the past 5 millennia and would not just get up and leave out of spite because of the creation of a Jewish State. Yet they had no plan to achieve an acceptable demographic ratio. They knew that the very existence of a democratic nation acceptable to the West could never be achieved and they could never acquire the sought-after Jewish lebensraum if the Arabs were all allowed to stay. But even so, they refrained from contemplating any exodus of the problem people by force or threat The Zionist leaders had the clear, public and stated goal of reconstituting Eretz Yisrael over a much greater area that 181 had granted them, but knew this could never the realised while the indigenous Arabs remained. Yet the peace-loving Jews prepared no strategy whatsoever aimed at countering this. PULL THE OTHER ONE, HBENDOR. YOUR FORUM READERS ARE NOT MENTALLY RETARDED!! There is a plethora of evidence to show that there was a clear plan of Transfer. If you like, I can show it to you
Good forum and truth seekers, please note that HBendor leaves his rebuttals on the following status: 1) His attempted rebuttal of the Zionist militia as being the main source of the Palestinian flight is supported only by a few dead-end non-verifiable quotes invented by Shmuel Katz and parroted by Commentary Magazine and others whereupon they went viral on the Zionist web sites as proof. How utterly underwhelming. On the other hand, in the opposing corner the proof that the Zionist militia were involved in a massive ethnic cleansing is supported by thousands of referenced reports from official Israeli archives. Note further that these Benny Morris reference sources HAVE NEVER BEEN QUESTIONED ON THIS FORUM, LET ALONE PROVED TO BE INVALID. 2) His brazen suggestion that the Zionist Ethnic Cleansing of the Palestinians in 1948 was matched in reciprocation by the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands. He has been conclusively shown that the bulk of these emigrations of the Jews were of their own volition. None were ever marched to the nearest border en masse and left there. He was also shown that by far the greatest percentage of Jews leaving Arab lands took place as a result of post-1948 Zionist aggression. He was shown that there was a huge exodus of Jews from Egypt after Israel had invaded in 1956, and the population was finally emptied with Israels 1966 and 1967 invasions. Yet HBendor walks away claiming victory and a resounding defeat for Klipkap. The man is just so clearly delusionary.
Since you have recently been demanding responses to your posts, may I return the favour. You have observed wartime radio silence on the infinite unlikelihood of your claim quoted above that there was no Zionist plan to uproot the Arab population from what was to become Israel a few months later.
You have been shown how the “demographic problem” of the Palestinians within the borders designated to be a Jewish State must have been obvious to any Zionist leader of the time ... just as it is patently obvious on this forum, other than to those whose criteria involve only faith and dogma. You were asked how it could be possible that such a glaring fatal flaw would not have resulted in profound analysis and a combat strategy. I have yet to hear from you. But while we may reason that a solution MUST have been sought, are there any facts to show that “there was no national plan to remove the Arabs” is the expected nonsense? Chaim Weizmann was first President of the State of Israel, and President of the World Zionist Organisation over 29 critical years. In a 1930 meeting with Dr. Drummond Shiels, the British Assistant Colonial Secretary, the latter made the observation that the implementation of a Jewish homeland would be facilitated by the “transfer” of Arabs from Palestine. Responding to Shiel's transfer proposal, since he answered that “a solution like that was a courageous and statesmanlike attempt to grapple with a problem which had been tackled hitherto halfheartedly.... Some [Arabs from Palestine] might flow off into the neighbouring countries, and this quasi exchange of population could be encouraged and fostered... It only required careful preparation and goodwill.” – This and other details can be sourced here (click). Shiels was either speculating or he appeared to lose sight of the fact that the subjects under discussion were not cattle of camels whose destiny could be disctated from an armchair in Whitehall, but had been the indigenous occupiers of the “Holy Land” for many millennia. They were Jews who had stayed on their lands and accepted successive religious conversions. We now call them the Palestinians. It would take a World War for the British to finally divest themselves of this overt “imperialist master” cloak. So, Borat and HBendor, the Zionist leadership was supremely aware of the “transfer option” from an early stage. Let’s see what Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons has to conclude from his research on the topic. Rabbi Simons is a well-known Jew-hater and in common with Jew-haters [sarcasm] on this forum, believes in the power of verifiable historical facts combined with logical reasoning and analysis, this in contrast to the faith, myths and national mantras of the Apologists. His book “Historical Survey of Proposals to Transfer Arabs from Palestine 1895 – 1947” is available on-line here (click). It is a veritable Exocet missile to the Zionist Myth. For instance: MYTH BUSTED - yet again!!
MYTH MIFFED - yet again!! Now that I have shoveled all the cow manure, and everything is neat, I will wash the cow's udders, connect them to the milking machine and tell you in no uncertain term that I am also for transfer of all these Jordanian monsters that came here on the wake of the Jordanian army led by British officers and squatted for 19 years on conquered land... They have no ownership documentation (KHUSHAN0) they are gypsies and have to be returned to the place they moved in from... Of course this would not be approved by the head honcho and his amen corner insulting partners... hey this is what I wish for... I hope this materializes.
You have an earthy vocation I see, HBendor. I once had a cow. It was very uplifting if somewhat restrictive. She needed milking 3-times a day (by hand was our only option). I am gratified that you brought it up. It is always unpleasant if an important gratification depends on an area to which one is unsuited. I for instance am useless at fine motor functions; seating a spring and then screwing a nut onto it is usually beyond me. Logic and reason come naturally to me though.
Yet this multiply refuted klipkap fellow just keeps posting as if not caught. Seems to me heavy partisanship and perhaps endless capacity for Baiting 'zionists'.
