Our nation's greatest minds and leaders like Pres. Obama, Sen. Lautenburg, and Mayors Daley and Bloomberg tell the unwashed masses that sensible gun control laws, like banning certain evil military type rounds and weapons, and having strict gun registration, will ensure our safety and wellbeing. Opressive gun control laws must equate to less murders and less crime. Having the law MUST make all the difference. In Mexico, most firearms larger than a .22 rimfire are discouraged. Citizens must register their firearm with the local corrupt law enforcement agency, and then not be able to carry it in an urban environment, like Juarez, where an honest person would need it most. If the law was really that effective then there would not be so many thousands of gun deaths in Mexico. Most illegal guns are run up from the south along with all the other illegal contraband. There were even 67 murders in Juarez, Mexico in just one day! Just across the border in El Paso, there are only a few murders all year. A morally debased people, like those in Mexico, and many of our own violent urban cities, will not obey any law if there are not effective punishments set in place. A very liberal use of capital punishment for any repeat violent offender or capital murderer would solve this problem in short order.
If there's one thing Mexico's situation proves is that no matter how strict your gun laws the bad guys will still find way to get armed. All oppressive gun regulations do is strip law-abiding citizens and potential victims of their ability to effectively defend themselves. After all, if a criminal is going to commit a crime like murder, what's going to stop him/her from committing a smaller crime like possess an unregistered firearm.
I like the idea of "discouraged". You still have the freedom to own what you want, but if it's discouraged, the population will create a sense of what is acceptable and what is not. The population decide the level of control without any legal implementations. It works beautifully, kinda like a free market system. Humans being pack animals will adapt to fit in. No laws required either. That'll shut 'em up.
You're mistaking political responses to "something must be done!" demands from vocal voters with any kind of intelligent gun policy there. I doubt many of the politicians believe these laws will magically prevent crime any more than you do. Honesty doesn't win elections though. Do civilians actually obey that law though? Having the law is one thing but it's pointless if it's not enforced. I think the word "corrupt" is much more significant here than any comparison of theoretical gun regulation. I think a major failure of people at both extremes of this debate is to focus on the gun laws and ignore all the other factors that influence crime in any given juristiction. You think? How many people are currently convicted of murder on two subsequent occasions? Again, you've got an enforcement issue, not a legal one.
Starting off with a straw man, eh? Not a very persuasive beginning, I'm afraid. Now you ascribe an adjective to gun control laws that is wholly subjective. A difficult way to pursue a reasoned argument, I believe. Secondly, you have put a prerequisite on new gun legislation that doesn't exist for ANY other piece of legislation. It's simply not how legislation is written. You have made conclusions as to Mexico that are not supported by any facts that I am aware of. The fact that Mexico has a high murder rate might well have more to do with their drug culture than anything else. You also failed to note what the effect would be there with LESS restrictive gun laws. Frankly, you have cherry-picked some (un-sourced) tidbits to justify your ideology. Not very persuasive. Once again, you have started with a false premise which inevitably leads you into as false conclusion. You assume that Mexico citizens are a "morally debased people", and then assume that capitol punishment would be the answer to this problem (once again with no sourced proof). All in all, a very weak argument.
Facts are self evident to anyone with the itelligence to see them. The sun rises in the morning, the earth is round, and groups of people who lack moral values (the traditional Christian, Western values especially) will have higher crime. Bad areas are bad because of the bad people who inhabit them. I would assume you have the same false premise that people commit crimes because they are "poor," they didn't have more millions spent on good schools, or they have been oppressed by some "unfair system" but you have stated no theory of your own. And worse, you have given us nothing with which to fix the problem. Draconian laws in the East (Saudia Arabia, Singapore) keep the population in check. Criminals there will be punished severly. Death for any extreme crime like murder is the rule. Enforcement of the law makes the difference. Now look at the mess here in America. Why, pray tell, did the crime rate explode upwards after the mid 1960's? The main reason why is that traditional values were replaced by progressive ones. Traditional families have been smashed by the welfare state, and most importantly, our criminal justice system was liberalized. Endless appeals now make the death penalty a poor deterrent. People were so much poorer in the first half of the 20th century, yet even during the depression there was not even a crime problem of any significance than can compare to the last several decades. School were simple affairs. The morals of the communities kept people in check along with a superior use of harsh punishments like chain gangs and capital punishment. People in "the Hood" along with populations in gang infested areas of Mexico feel they can "be as bad as they want to be" and face little threat of accountibility. The system is corrupt because the people are corrupt. History proves my points. Why was crime so rare in small towns 300 years ago here? Answer: Higher morals, and the facts that theives would be placed in stocks in the town square and humiliated. Violent persons whould be straighted-out by ropes. The criminal justice system back then, even with slavery, was vastly superior to what we have now in Mexico and urban hell-holes like Stockton, CA and Washington DC.
Interesting because Mexico is 95% Christian, while the USA is only 78% Christian. Mexico is very traditional, and has been practicing some of the same values since the Spanish arrived (before anyone even settled the lands that became the USA. Are you praising these are not? This is a very confusing post. Find any evidence of that yet, or is circular reasoning your methodology? Progressivism started before WWI, the 1960s is a bit late. Dont you think its a bit odd, that if progressive were so bad that their poster child would on Mount Rushmore? Citations? Data? Evidence? Or should I take your word for it? Then you should have plenty of links and evidence to back your opinions up then. Lets have them.
Calling oneself a Christian, living in a "Chiristian Nation," and being a Christian because your ancestors were is not the same as being a practicing Christian. A Mexican Catholic has no excuse, no excuse to allow or tolerate gang killings or look the other way. Muslims do not have much of a moral code, their honor code allowing revenge, jihad, etc does not impress real Christians. At least their laws help keep the peace among themselves to some degree. Iran and A-Stan are the most dangerous countries on the planet. If these two countries were 90% conservative, evengelical Christians would there be the violence? Of course not. Being the clever person that you must be, there are crime tables ad nauseum to look up. Look at this one: www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm Crime from 1960 to 2009. Look at all the crime rates---they are somewhat stable until about 1964 and 1965, then they all take off. What was going on to cause this??? The Great Society Welfare State Programs, Civil Rights--not Civil Responisibilities, and the liberalization of the courts and laws. Traditional Christian laws and values were being overturned. The influnce of Christians was being overrun by socialists. The Progressives of circa 1908 did not screw up the criminal justice system or erase Christian morals. LBJ was more of a Marxist than Teddy Roosevelt. Here is a pearl of wisdom: Punish the felon.
You appear to be singularly concentrating on the last paragraph to my post to the exception of the entire rest of my post. You have forgotten, somehow that this is a gun forum and my response was addressing your OP that concerns this topic. I had addressed the weakness of your argument as to your OP. I notice that you weren't able to touch on this in your response.
The whole premise of the Original Post was that Mexican gun laws are ridiculous, have no effect on lowering crime, and, and like here in the US, gun control laws themselves (registration, banning certain calibers and weapons)do not have an effect on reducing crime. Crime has everything to do with the people, their culture and moral values. You gave the classic "it was the drug crime problem" that causes the high murder rate. Buy why do the drug cartels flourish in Mexico? The people are too amoral and culturally debased to stand up to the problem. In our county drug trafficers and felons are slammed hard. Our citizens at large will not tolerate meth labs and coke dealers on the streets. The DA's and courts in our county know the people will not stand for reduced sentances or dropped charges. Our crime and murder rates are a mear fraction of the liberal-dem urban city across the river. We have the very same laws. You want hard facts and studies to prove points. I would like to see your treatise on gun control and crime. Even better, I'd like to see your ideas to solve violent crime in the US and Mexico.
I agree with certain points. I do agree that the relationship between Mexico's gun laws and their crime levels is something to be looked at. However, I don't see how productive the other argument is... that the overall morality of the Mexican people is related to crime and their views on gun control. I think a more important thing to look at would be the correlation between an understandable fear of the interplay between corrupt political environment and the drug cartels, and your so called 'tolerance of gang violance'. You view on the situation in Mexico is simplistic and fails to even address the underlying issue, corruption. But getting back to the topic, it is still important to look at the Mexican gun laws. Article 10 of the Mexican Constitution states: The inhabitants of the United Mexican States have the right to possess arms in their homes for their security and legitimate defense with the exception of those prohibited by federal law and of those reserved for the exclusive use of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and National Guard. Federal law shall determine the cases, conditions and place in which the inhabitants may be authorized to bear arms. But this right is very very restricted and of course subject to discretion of government agencies who, arguably, are part of the corruption problem. Federal Law allows possession of handguns, however the caliber is limited to .380 or less. This excludes .357 and 9mm both very very common self-defense ammo. I would suggest that it is entirely possible that these restrictions leave the Mexican population outgunned by the criminal elements who obviously are not limited in type of ammunition. While self defense is protected in Mexican law the argument can be made that it is not protected enough and subject to the discretion of corrupt government entities
The drug cartels don't care about laws and morals, and neither do a significant percentage of the population of Mexico. Crime has everything to do with morals. The culture of bribes and corruption and a history of extermely weak governments in Mexico has lead to the drug violence. Their so called "Christian" views of no capital punishment and letting criminals off easy ecourages crime. Ruthless gangs now control many areas of Mexico and few honest people dare risking their lives to stand up to them. This is pathetic, yet understandable. So, can the problem be fixed by the Mexican people? The only way it will happen under their current culture is for a strong revolutionary leader to take over wipe out the gangs. This could only happen after a societal collapse. The best way America could solve the problem of drug gang killings here and there is to send in the troops and seal-off the border with Mexico and screen everything coming through. Declare any non-citizen caught carrying enough drugs to be considered more than personal use to be an enemy combatant intent on acts of terror. Hard drugs like cocaine, heroin and meth are the cause of much mayhem. All non-citizen drug dealers and those caught transporting these hard drugs should be placed in front of a military tribunal, and if found guilty, hung. I don't think Obama will go for this idea.
What can they do? What should they do? There is no such nation like that on the planet, because those kind of people are bat(*)(*)(*)(*) crazy, and the normal people in nations with a large population of the crazies, are not stupid enough to allow them to gain power. Its hard to use conservative and evangelical Christian in the same sentence, because very few of them are really conservative. I would say more personal freedom and population increase, but since this table is only raw data, one cannot really use it to correlate anything to anything. Oh how Christian of you (SARCASM). Jesus Christ taught me to forgive.
And these were specifically what I have already addressed here and that you have not been able to respond to. You have made an invalid conclusion from a correlation between Mexico and the US. From the information you have given us, this cannot be logically done. Secondly, you made an erroneous statements, BOTH as to what constitutes "gun control laws" AND stating that we have gun registration in this country when we do not. Even your reference to a supposed ban on "certain calibers and weapons", is a stretch by any measure. We, in this country are able to purchase almost any caliber weapon available. Your whole argument appears to be built entirely on emotional proclamations and devoid of any valid or factual evidence. That's it? Really? You obviously haven't fully thought this one out. Critical thinking can help you here. Hint:....... Blaming the victims isn't usually the best way to make a valid argument. You have made claims as to the "morality" of the citizens that you cannot factually support, and yet it is the linchpin of your entire argument. Odd. Now, you mention nothing about "morality". Your argument is now shifting. Once again you have made proclamations you cannot support. You act as if we don't have meth labs, coke dealers in the streets and a revolving door criminal justice system in this country, because we DO. Trying to shift the burden of proof to ME? REALLY? This is YOUR thread, pal, and YOUR flawed argument. Don't ask ME to clean it up for you. Apply critical thinking to your positions and you won't make this mistake. Ideology is no substitute for rationality.
Mayor calls for homegrown protection... Small town Mexican mayor issues call to arms against criminals September 15, 2011 - Mexico has much tougher gun laws than the US, but towns desperate to contain crime might be wishing for easier access for their communities.
Danct, the great critic. I can only deduct by your signature and some of your other posts that you don't agree with much of anything I post. First, you invalidate my statement that Mexican and US gun laws are not at all the same because the US does not "register" firearm. This word "registration" is just a relavtive term. The US has had defacto gun registration for years. All citizens who buy guns from dealers must fill out Form 4473 which is on record for 20 years. Two or more handgun purchases must be reported to the Feds with Form 3310.4. A logical person would call that registration, even if there wasn't a central database. Do some research on Mexican gun laws and their current registration requirements. The level of corruption and moral decay is so great that these laws have virtually no effect. A major point: criminals don't obey the law, here or there. In the FBI 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates they found that 80% of the guns they obtained to do their crimes were from family, freinds, street buys and other illegal sources (ie stolen). Given that felons are not allowed to own guns, and that recidivism rates for criminals is about 66% in this country, I would use a bit of logic and conclude that gun registration is ridiculous and ineffective. Another point: lack of morals is the main driving force behind crime. Crime is linked to every society on earth based on the; people, their culture and moral values. There has been no (MST) Moral Sense Test done in any nation, but one can have a basic knowledge of peoples and events in any given nation and make a logical conclusion. I wouldn't need any hard test data if I were in Sierra Leone when the RUF was hacking off arms of their victims to know their morals were in the toilet. Same thing with the Cartels killing in Juarez, and I for one have lived near that city in the past. Yet another point: poverty, lack of education and lack of government spending does not effect crime, it is the moral values of the people that drive it. Crime went way up (350%) after 1964 and 1965 when the justice system was liberalized. The urban riots started in the summer of 1964. All the government welfare spending to end poverty only made it worse. Last point: Demanding harsh punishment for harsh crimes IS moral. From a conservative Christian standpoint there is a tidal wave of Biblical evidence supporting capital punishment and other forms of retribution allowable by governments---even in today's world. Please point out your logical opinions on the causes and solutions to worldwide crime if they exist in prior threads. Can you do more than just analyze data?
I didn't say half of that you quoted me on. so either you are inept at quoting and posting, or you are being unethical. is that in the New Testament somewhere, or is that all in the Jew Testament?
It might be in all the twaddle Mohammad wrote down( The Koran) in his delusionary state after going off deep end when Kadija died ?
I won't go through all that as others have done a better job spelling out the somewhat confusing laws and commands in the NT and OT. I shall not bore you further with my preaching, but my thinking is along the lines of this: www.theologyonline.com/DEATH.HTML
Greataxe, your excellent OP, and subsequent posts have in some cases, fallen on the deaf ears of the emotive anti gun brigade. These types arrive at conclusions emotionally, then try to substantiate their conclusions by denial of reality, word games, and disruptive debate. It`s obvious to anyone with any respect for reality, that firearms in the hands of responsible and competant people are 100% safe. Simple minded folks, strangers to common sense, who are satisfied with their emotive agendas can never be convinced otherwise by reason. There are plenty of examples of the side stepping of inconvenient facts, and the vague thought process of anti gunners in your thread right here. Australia now has a firearm elimination program in the guise of gun control. For example, to maintain a target shooters pistol license, we have to attend a quota of registered competitions per anum for each class of pistol, or lose the pistol license. This law is obviously designed to destroy the sport of pistol target shooting and had the desired effect on myself, and thousands of others. Work commitments didn`t allow me to attend enough shoots, so after 37 years of safe practice, I was forced to hand my pistols and licenses in. Next year, I`m planning another trip up to Cape York (crocodile country), so I`ll just buy a black market .44 to take with me, hopefully it won`t have a criminal record.
