You didn't provide a single medical fact in your point...not one...just your uneducated opinion...FAIL
"horrors" of abortion? Define horror. I dont expect you will. You cant even defend the most basic claim of a right to life. No, they dont see a conflict at all - they just find it disgusting work, which is fair enough. If they dont have the stomach for it, they should find other avenues of employment. Its natural to feel sick over such a procedure, as many doctors would I suspect over other kinds of surgery that gets particularly gory and so on. I fail to see your point here. I suspect most mothers dont suffer at all. Some abortionists might suffer, but then they should abstain from performing them as they see fit. This does not show how abortion is wrong, only the nature of business - like warfare, or being a paramedic, or coroner etc etc. Welcome to reality churchmouse.
Well, basically any would be nice instead of opinion pieces by spin doctors Tell you what - how about starting with disproving that there is ever a need for an abortion for the health and life of the woman? That is a good one - because embedded is the question of who has the right to decide what degree of risk a woman should take
What's even funnier is that you are so incapable of defending your ignorance you have to completely disregard the remarks of others. Denial is often the best evidence of delusion.
How about you start one on what science says about life? Then follow that up with how you deny what they say anyway? Then start one about the heart of pro-aborts. LOL
This pathetic divergence from debate is so common place, I wonder why lifers bother when they are so clearly deprived of any actual argumentation.
Ah! Avoidance I see. Irrelevant too because even if there were a hard and fast scientific acceptance of a definition of "life" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life it would only be of marginal applicability to the question of foetal development because you could use a definition of "life" to include spermatozoa What you are seeking is a definition of when a unique being is created - and even that is fraught
You know you lurk around abortion threads…I just posted in a discussion a lengthy list of scientists and medical doctors…what they said about when life starts. Lurk over and look.
I have resisted getting involved in any abortion threads so far but will break my silence and sound off. I realize this is a highly sensitive and emotional topic, and one of the few issues I sympathize with the right leaning folks. In the perfect world, I would not want to see any abortions! This is not a perfect world. I support a woman's right to abort in cases of rape, insist or life threatening situations. Clearly in cases like that no one has a greater right or say then the woman! However, a good case can be made to suggest many or a significant percentage of women, whether by their own choice or through outside pressures and influences, get an abortion as a last minute birth control method. Also, we really can not say with 100% certainty how developed a fetus is up to 6 months, I oppose late term abortion unless the mother is at risk. We really need to take every consideration, as this living thing, this fetus might be able to fell pain as it gets it's head crushed during a abortion. I would never support a all out right abortion ban! That is foolish, as clearly there are times when one is legitimately sought. I would not make it so hard to get one that only higher educated or more financially set women could get one. But I would like to see some regulation to at least lower the percentage of Ooops Abortions. These are very difficult thresh holds to meet that would satisfy each side! I think until we learn more about the fetus development, I simply don't buy a fetus no awareness and can not feel pain at 5-6 months. We should error on the safe side if possible! Also the current laws are contradictory in nature! If a fetus is not a "person" then how can some one be charged with double homicide in a auto accident if they kill a pregnant woman? How can it be a person in a accident, but in a calculated operation procedure designed to destroy it it is not a person? Finally I would like to see better abortion procedures that do not rely on crushing bones and pulling apart limbs. If we must do this, lets do it in a way that guarantees no pain to the fetus! So yes, I can understand the pro-lifers frustration! But at the same time I also want to be fair to the women too. Tough juggle act!
How is that any different as in the case of rape? They can feel pain past 12 weeks and this should be treated to, however that does not render abortion unacceptable. So what is a "legitimate" abortion to you? You appear to support a very contradictory and hypocritical position. You seem to think killing a fetus is bad, unless its the product of a rapist. Rather arbitrary in my view. We know when it can feel pain. We know that a fetus has no conceptualization of its existence . This is all we need know. I agree that doesn't make sense, however fetus is a woman's property, so it should be considered a crime to some extent to end a fetuses life without the mother's consent. Pro-lifers create their own frustration by not supporting a actual position that would validate the claim that human life is especially important.
How should it be treated? I already answered that. Rape, insist or when a woman's life is at risk. What we don't know is the level of awareness. Also I'm glad to hear you admit a fetus can feel pain. Some would deny that. It's not considered just a crime, but double homicide! That makes the fetus a person if involved in a auto accident. But oddly not a person during a abortion. This has fueled a lot of anger and frustration on the pro-lifer side. I can see why. To a certain extent I would agree with that. However I suspect that their inability to come to a compromise as in the case of many pro-choicer folks add frustration on both sides. I admitted this is a tough balancing act. If push came to shove, the woman's right would trump the unborn. What I'd really like to see as I indicated is a more humane way to abort the fetus with out crushing it's skull or ripping it's limbs apart. The number of abortions are just astronomical. Some thing should be done on the line of education. I have no objections of having a woman view 2 films on abortions prior to her first abortion. One from a pro-life group, and one from a pro-choice group. Then she can decide for herself. I find that reasonable.
With drugs so as to minimize as many sensations of pain as possible. Ok, but my question is, why is rape, incest or when a woman's life is at risk different to, say, the woman simply not wanting to have the baby? Is your objection with the reason for an abortion, or the abortion itself. We know a fetus is not self-aware until after birth - some estimate around 26 days. I can see the frustration of the inconsistency, but as I said, I'm also frustrated by it because it doesnt make sense. You dont need to compromise as much as you need to actually make a case - something not one lifer here on PF has done in any sincere way. I agree, we ought to mitigate pain, something which, as you yourself said, many people disregard. I dont find that reasonable at all. Those videos are almost never about being informed, they are about emotional propaganda more than anything. No, a woman need only, as you said, a basic education, and a presentation of the facts. Emotionalism is a cornerstone of lifer argumentation and its an entire fallacy. Pro-choice folk use their rhetoric, but its no where near as pervasive or as heavily integrated.
Technically there is no difference. I just feel the reason is better then for convenience sake. I also did say if push came to shove, the woman's right trumps the unborn. I just think there is an astronomical amount of abortions and needless ones for sake of convenience. This is more complicated then getting a mold removed. This is a potential person who could contribute greatly or be a serial rapist, we don't know but the potential is there for another person to experience life. I'm not buying that. To either side it seems. I believe I am being very sincere. And giving mind to each side equally to the best of my ability. Some thing I'm afraid I really don't see too much of from either side No arguments from me on this I would like to see some form of education prior to their first abortion, not a written exam or any thing, but evidence they are completely aware of all the circumstances before they make their choice.
But you've just conceded, in the end its always the mother's choice. That was my point. You dont really believe in a restriction. http://www.amazon.com/Bioethics-Anthology-Blackwell-Philosophy-Anthologies/dp/0631203117 I agree. People can only give them information - they cannot force them to educate themselves.
More on the line of education is what I said. I have not read that book but have read other articles and as I said I am not convinced. But forsake of argument let us assume you are correct, no awareness, the fetus still has a potential to be a person and enjoy life. As I said this is more complicated then having a mold removed. It happens Really? I was forced to educate myself and take a exam to get a drivers license. Is not the potential of destroying a human life a wee bit more important? And again I repeat I'm not suggesting a exam, but of course would not object to one We need to lower the abortions numbers with out restricting a woman's right. We need to make the procedure more humane and we also need to make sure first timers understand what they are about to do. You realize that 41 percent of pregnancies, excluding miscarriages, in 2009 ended in abortion in just NYC, and a shocking 80% of them were minorities! Some thing should and can be done about that. We can't just excuse this or ignore it under the woman's right to chose excuse. Of course it will ultimately be up to the woman. But if we seen a alarming rate of car accidents on one intersection, we would investigate the cause and try to remedy it to reduce the number of car accidents. If we see an alarming spike in teenage suicide we investigate and try to remedy. At what percentage would it take before you agree with me on this? If abortions climbed as high as 80%? Would you then agree may be we need to look at this? I hope you can see I am not trying to make this a battle and I am trying to be as fair and open minded as possible.
So why all the talk about rape and incest creating some exception? Its not that complicated. It has potential, sure, but so does a sperm cell - that doesnt give it a right to life either. As I said, a woman seeking to have an abortion must given some brief information as to the nature and purpose of the procedure. Outside of this, you can offer her any quantity or quality of information, but its ultimately her choice. The idea that life is important is rather subjective. I personally would try to raise a child if I got my girlfriend pregnant, but if she wanted to abort, I would respect her decision - ultimately its her body and her interest. Sure, I agree. But again restricting access or abortion rights is not the means of achieving this. I was never in disagreement here. As I said, people ought to be educated so as to best utilize and pursue their interests. This is beside the point, however, when considering the legitimacy of abortion, which was my focus. I'm more in agreement that in opposition to what you have said.
And I ignored it because it is irrelevant. It was not a consensus statement but a list of cherry picked words from random people
Why not some form of education to prevent abortion in the first place by preventing [regnancy? The ONLY intervention that has been proven to lower the abortion rate is education to prevent abortion. Legislation will not work (take it from me - it is illegal here in Queensland) making women watch films or ultrasounds will not work (and BTW how do you "make them watch"?) because people can and will ignore what they do not want to see. If it were me I would be sitting there with earphones on reading a magazine - so how would you "make me watch" something?
Well considering abortion is still a very controversial issue it is obviously going to be controversial in the field of medicine too. I mean you have doctors who still have their own belief systems too. I am sure there are just as many pro-life doctors as there are pro-choice ones and a lot of them probably object to abortion. I still can't get over the fact that George Tiller used to go to church on a regular basis when everyone knew he was an ob/gyn that performed abortions. I mean, I am no theologist but I am pretty sure Christianity does not approve of abortion. lol
Absolutely! I would like to see it begin in middle school. With all the precautions available to us today, there is no reason to be seeing the high numbers of abortions we see.
