UKIP

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Reiver, May 3, 2014.

  1. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    Thatcher transformed the UK from the sick man of Europe to Its financial powerhouse.
     
  2. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Recessions are world wide. Right now the next bubble to pop will be the world debt bubble. As far as equity bubbles, nothing ever done has avoided them no matter what Reiver says is the cause.
     
  3. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    To see the debacle of Thatcherism in a positive light can only demonstrate a complete disregard of economic reality (which we know inflicts UKIP). Try, for example, Ward (1982, Mrs. Thatcher's economic strategy in practice, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, Vol 4, pp 516-531): ”Between 1979 and mid-1981…(m)anufacturing output has declined by 16 percent; this exceeds the fall in the worst years of the Great Depression, 1929 to 1931 (11 percent)".

    There's also clear evidence of class warfare going on. Take Unions. Its traditional to whinge that 1970s Britain was brought to its knees through union power. Actually the negative impacts of unions was felt in the 1980s (due to a poisonous relationship where Toryism was motivated by revenge for previous Union involvement in Tory political collapse). Consider, for example, productivity. Denny (1997, Productivity and trade unions in British manufacturing industry 1973-85, Applied Economics, Vol 29, pp 1403-1410) finds no relationship between unions and productivity levels in the 1970s but a negative relationship post-1979. We also saw that with NUM. Consider, for example, Glyn and Machin [1997, Colliery Closures and the Decline of the UK Coal Industry, British Journal of Industrial Relations, Vol 35, pp 197-214]). Here are some snippets:

    "[W]hen ranked by productivity, closures were only weakly clustered at the bottom of the distribution, and that there were reasonably large numbers of closures located in the top half of the distribution”

    “[C]losures were by no means exclusively concentrated on the worst performers, and many of the pits that were closed at the end of the period had achieved very large increases in productivity over the years preceding closure”

    ”It is striking, however, that the 5 pits on BC’s closure list that were not on Boyd’s “worst 31” were all in Yorkshire. This seems to support the idea that there was strong political pressure when BC’s list was drawn up to keep open a few pits in the outlying areas.”

    The truth about Thatcherism is simple: it is about ideology over economic rationality. Consider, monetarism and the attempt to control inflation (which was actually declining under the previous regime). Read something like Backhouse (2002, The Macroeconomics of Margaret, Journal of the History of Economic Thought, Vol. 24, pp.313-334) for an introduction. The negative deindustrialisation was caused by the interaction of several policies, examples include:

    1) exchange controls abolished leading to Bank of England money supply techniques becoming ineffective

    2) nasty increase in interest rates as the government tried to use monetarist policies to control inflation

    3) introduction of tax and supply side policies that induced inflation (e.g. increase in VAT that increased the RPI immediately by 4%)

    4) severely restrictive fiscal policy that impacted mainly on households and therefore consumption

    Its easy to control inflation by crucifying the economy, but its bleedin stupid. And we are still feeling the consequences of the stupidity: with an unnatural shift to a low skilled equilibrium and a harvesting of child poverty.


     
  4. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Car industry capital is highly mobile. It is exceedingly naive to think leaving the EU doesn't matter. Indeed, these geographic effects from the nature of economic integration are well understood in modern trade analysis

    The Euro is a different issue. It is obvious that, to maximise benefits, economic convergence is required. There was no such convergence. UKIPers are reliant on making false claims to justify their insularity and vacuous nationalism
     
  5. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    Looks like UKIP are going to dominate today and the 'lets sneer at them' tactics of the likes of Reiver have completely failed. Not going to stop him though because the left can't learn from experience.
     
  6. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You continue to make no sense. I stated that UKIP will do well because the English are voting via either bigotry or ignorance. Voting for right wingers, given right wing economics delivered economic crisis, is certainly clueless
     
  7. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    Hilarious
     
  8. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You think English bigotry and/or ignorance of what they are voting for is funny? Golly, that's rather anti-English!
     
  9. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So the English are bigots and ignorant eh? Must be because they are part of the EU.
     
  10. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Those voting UKIP are one or the other (though technically you could argue that bigotry is ignorance)
     
  11. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And of course anyone voting anything else are enlightened. LOL
     
  12. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Its not possible to deduce, unless they're voting for the likes of the English Democrats (then we're back to UKIPer territory)
     
  13. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Socialism is worker ownership and control of the means of production. I favour a post-Hayekian form which, protecting property rights, achieves both efficiency and equity gains. Now anyone who sees Thatcherism in a positive light cannot provide a credible economic remark. The severity of their economic 'innocence' ensures that obvious conclusion
     
  14. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    Socialism is public ownership which can mean state ownership as well as direct worker ownership.
     
  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Very basic error. Following your 'approach', tory nationalisation of Rolls Royce would have been socialist.

    You've merely confused socialist political economy with the economic spectrum (from laissez faire to command economy). State ownership, for example, is merely an aspect of state capitalism
     
  16. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    'The Ukip fox is in the Westminster henhouse'

    Ukip so far have 124 councillors across England - a massive gain of 122, and only 94 of the 161 councils taking part in these English council elections have declared their results so far.

    A surge in support for Ukip has cost all the mainstream parties seats and control of councils, as Nigel Farage's People's Army marches into town halls across the country.

    The Tories, Labour and Lib Dems all saw their grip on local authorities eroded as dozens of seats fell to Ukip in local elections in England.

    A jubilant Mr Farage declared: 'The Ukip fox is in the Westminster henhouse.'

    [​IMG]
    Ukip leader Nigel Farage clutches a bottle of wine as he is mobbed by supporters and the media as he met new councillors in South Ockendon

    Results so far in local elections in England (just the Big Four parties)

    Councils

    Labour: 58 (+5)
    Conservatives: 27 (-10)
    Liberal Democrats: 5 (-2)
    Ukip: 0 (0)


    Councillors

    Labour: 1147 (+181)
    Conservatives: 881 (-156)
    Liberal Democrats: 316 (-169)
    Ukip: 124 (+122)

    After 94 of 161 councils


    Ukip gains cost the Tories control of Basildon, Castle Point and Southend while a surge in Essex saw Mr Farage's party erode the Labour grip in Thurrock - a key Westminster target for Ed Miliband's party.

    In the north, Ukip showed it could pose a threat to Labour in its strongholds, taking 10 of the 21 council seats up for election in Rotherham, including nine gains, and polling an average of 47 per cent where its candidates stood.

    The Lib Dems lost control of Portsmouth after Ukip won six seats, including defeating under-fire Lib Dem MP Mike Hancock who was standing for re-election to the council.

    Speaking to reporters outside his home this morning, Mr Farage said: 'There are areas of the country where now we have got an imprint in local government.

    Under the first-past-the-post system we are serious players.'

    [​IMG]
    Cheers! After a gruelling election campaign, Mr Farage savers a pint in a pub in Benfleet

    [​IMG]
    Frances Fox celebrates becoming Ukip's first councillor elected in Peterborough


    HOW THE UKIP FACTOR ROBBED RIVALS OF COUNCIL CONTROL

    Ukip might not have won any councils themselves, but a surge in support robbed the other parties of overall control of town halls across the country.

    Ukip gains cost the Tories control in Maidstone, Basildon, Peterborough, Castle Point and Southend-on-Sea.

    Similarly, Labour lost control of Thurrock and Lib Dems were ousted from Portsmouth after Ukip won seats.

    BIGGEST UKIP WINS:
    Basildon 11 seats
    Portsmouth 6 seats
    Thurrock 5 seats
    Southend 5 seats
    Castlepoint 5 seats
    Maidstone 4 seats


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ut-Friday-Ukip-surge-polls.html#ixzz32Xh5D000
     
  17. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    Ukip trounce their rivals in English local elections

    [​IMG]
    Ukip supporters celebrate big national gains as they wait for leader Nigel Farage to arrive in South Ockendon

    A surge in support for Ukip has cost all the mainstream parties seats and control of councils, as Nigel Farage's People's Army marches into town halls across the country.

    Ukip so far have 124 councillors across England - a massive gain of 122, and only 94 of the 161 councils taking part in these English council elections have declared their results so far.

    The Tories, Labour and Lib Dems all saw their grip on local authorities eroded as dozens of seats fell to Ukip in local elections in England.

    And, experts say that had this been a general election, Ukip would have won their first seat in the Commons.

    However, Ukip's seats are so thinly spread they have not taken control of any councils so far.

    The elections have been held for all 32 London boroughs, all 36 metropolitan boroughs, 74 second-tier district authorities, 20 unitary authorities and various mayoral posts, all in England. It isn't the whole of England which has held local elections but, still, large swathes of it still went to the polls. Almost half - 1,800 - of all the council seats up for grabs in England are in London.

    Elections to the new councils in Northern Ireland have also been held (Northern Ireland has different political parties to the rest of the UK).

    Around 46 million people have been eligible to vote.

    Ukip gains cost the Tories control of Basildon, Castle Point and Southend while a surge in Essex saw Mr Farage's party erode the Labour grip in Thurrock - a key Westminster target for Ed Miliband's party.

    In the north, Ukip showed it could pose a threat to Labour in its strongholds, taking 10 of the 21 council seats up for election in Rotherham, including nine gains, and polling an average of 47 per cent where its candidates stood. Ukip will especially be proud of their result in Rotherham because it is the town where, a year ago, the council - rather disturbingly - took a baby off its foster carers because they were Ukip supporters!

    The Lib Dems lost control of Portsmouth after Ukip won six seats, including defeating under-fire Lib Dem MP Mike Hancock who was standing for re-election to the council.

    Ukip don't seem to be doing as well in London, a more left-wing and ethnically diverse area of the country, though they have still gained council seats in some of the city's 32 boroughs.

    Speaking to reporters outside his home this morning, Mr Farage said: 'There are areas of the country where now we have got an imprint in local government.

    Under the first-past-the-post system we are serious players.'

    A surge in support for Ukip has cost all the mainstream parties seats and control of councils, as Nigel Farage's People's Army marches into town halls across the country.

    The Tories, Labour and Lib Dems all saw their grip on local authorities eroded as dozens of seats fell to Ukip in local elections in England.

    Bolton, my hometown, now has two Ukip councillors, after previously having none, although the town remains under Labour control.

    A jubilant Mr Farage declared: 'The Ukip fox is in the Westminster hen house.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ut-Friday-Ukip-surge-polls.html#ixzz32Xh5D000
     
  18. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    We just know that there are a large number of ignorant people in England. Shame really
     
  19. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for the example.
     
  20. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Best you've got? Golly
     
  21. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    You're the one needing to do that.

    Well, I'm happy for Britain that it's about to take over French production. Even countries like Romania are expected to produce more cars than France and Britain combined within the next 10 years. Almost all passenger car production of Renault is in Romania now. Renault intends to open 20 new plants here to cope with the demand.

    Since the year 2000 car production in Romania grew from 70000 units per year to last year's half million. Apart from foreign car makers that keep moving their plants here by the year (Renault, Ford, Daimler,Continental, Michelin, Takata-Petri), the national car brands are also growing exponentially. Top importers of our national car brand Dacia are Germany and France. The Dacia models are ranked as the most affordable, flexible, versatile of the European market.

    Car industry analysts will tell you about the highly profitable partnership between French Renault and Romanian Dacia. Just 10 years of joint production models and it already is the most successful business story in Renault's history. It's only the beginning. This is only Romania. Don't dare to challenge India. In 30 years from now they will dwarf the entire EU car production, let alone that of a single EU country.

    http://www.ey.com/GL/en/Industries/...-automotive-market---Country-profile--Romania
     
  22. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    Nobody is too important. Overestimation is dangerous. When it comes to strong political principles, nobody will wish to avoid a real trade war. Russia is an economy comparable to that of the UK in size and importance. And look... Total trade war, despite the current recession.

    There were many Russians and others just like you who thought ''Europe is never going to give up the Russian gas, Europe is totally dependent on Russian gas''. And look... Relations have been decisively broken, for decades to come.

    Whenever you think that others just can't cope without you, they step aside and prove you wrong, showing you that there are always alternatives.
     

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