When do you finally admit that Trump IS the swamp?

Looking at this week's news, it occurred to me that Trump fans cheering his alleged taking on of the swamp seem to be completely deluded.
Now let's ignore the fact that Trump is the son of a millionaire, with a private school education, an Ivy League college, brought up and thriving in the most elite city in the US, and who probably had never been to half the states in the US until he ran for president.
What is shocking is his uber swamp attitude that is encouraged by his fans. After being elected in 2016 one of his very first acts was placing his daughter and son in law in key areas of the government. Despite them having zero experience there. And now in 2024 Trump is pushing to get his daughter in law heading the RNC. How much more swampish can you possibly get?
I will add that all of trump defenders are arguing that in his Deutsche Bank trial, the main defense is "yes he lied, but the bank knew that so they estimated downwards". This is the very definition of the swamp: those in power having secret handshakes to which we as regular folks are not privy. Someone who is going to clean up the swamp denounces and exposes these practices, doesn't just try to benefit from them.
Trump is the ultimate swamp creature and the only thing he is doing is seeding the swamp with his own creatures.
How you people do not see that is beyond me.
Really, daughter in law head of the RNC?

 

yep, electing Trump just let the swamp run the show

 

This is another aspect of Trumpism that is still able to make me laugh out loud. These people actually think Trump is the type of person who is going to get rid of "swampy" politics.

A man who embodies the absolute worst of politicians, if not humanity itself, is NOT the man who's going to clean anything up and leave it better than he found it. And the worst part about it is, these folks would probably recognize that if we were talking about Joe Shmo at their work who just got promoted to a manager. But since it's Trump and they are bedazzled, they just can't see it.

 

Trump may be the swamp, disliked and unwanted by most Americans. The problem is Biden is in the same boat, disliked and unwanted but for different reasons. Trump’s indictments, Biden’s age and worry about his mental fitness to serve for another term. From Emerson poll - “Voters were asked if President Biden’s age raises serious doubts about voting for him in 2024, and separately if former President Donald Trump’s criminal indictments raise serious concerns about voting for him. Voters are nearly equally concerned: 58% say Biden’s age raises serious doubts in their minds about voting for the president and 42% say it is not a serious consideration of theirs, while 57% say Trump’s criminal indictments raise serious doubts in the mind about voting for Trump and 43% say it is not a serious consideration of theirs.


Among independent voters, 54% say Biden’s age raises serious doubts for them, while 61% say Trump’s criminal indictment raises serious doubts.

Within the candidates’ own parties, 45% of Democrats say Biden’s age raises doubts, while 30% of Republicans say the same of Trump’s indictments.”


https://emersoncollegepolling.com/f...against-trump-among-prominent-democrats/


What both major parties fail to realize is most Americans don’t want the swamp, Trump to regain the white house, they also don’t want Biden reelected. So the presidential is a pure tossup at this point between two disliked and unwanted to become the next president major party candidates. You also have 64% of all Americans who want another candidate to choose from other than swamp Trump and aged Biden.


https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/HHP_Jan24_KeyResults.pdf

 

Those who throw stones should bear in mind that the Clinton and Biden crime families have made themselves quite wealthy by selling their political influence. The activities of the Clinton Foundation and Hunter Biden are as bad or worse than anything Trump has done. If you don’t like Trump, the presidential choices in 2016, 2020 and probably 2024 are quite disappointing.

 

Swamp politics indeed. What both major parties haven’t done is look at how disliked and unwanted their candidates are by most Americans. Simply put, we have around 35% of all Americans who want Trump, 35% who want Biden, 30% who don’t want neither one. This latter 30% are in a who cares who wins or loses mode, no enthusiasm at all for the upcoming presidential election. Dread is the word they use the most for this rematch. This latter 30% are currenting stating they’ll either vote third party, against both major party candidates or stay home and not vote at all. Which leads me to believe we’ll have a very low voter turnout, more akin to 2016 than 2020 along with a high 3rd party vote for those who do vote, higher than in 2016 than 2020.

Compare the two elections, 2016 54% voter turnout using VAP, 137 million, 2020 62% voter turnout, 160 million. Third party vote, 6.0%, 8.2 million in 2016 vs. 1.7%, 2.7 million. 2016 was another election where both major party candidates were disliked and unwanted. 2024 seems to be a repeat of that election.

One must wonder if both major parties are more interested in making a statement than winning an election or providing candidates most Americans can readily accept as solid presidential material without all the indictments and political vindictiveness or without all the worries about age and mental fitness to do the job.

 

When thinking about a professional conman like Donald one needs to keep in mind he is what he accuses others of being. As you say, he is the swamp he claims to want to get rid of. He weaponized the DoJ while accusing Biden of doing so. He benefitted financially from being prez by making money through payments from foreign nations to his biz while he accuses Biden of taking brides. He illegally stole classified docs he then lied about possessing and violated a subpoena when the government asked for them back while accusing Biden of a similar crime. He claims to be a voice for the little man yet the tax cut he signed helps the rich while living the life of a billionaire. He claims the election was stolen from him even as he tried to steal the election.

He is the living, breathing embodiment of everything he claims to be against.

 

He is the poster buoy of "confession through projection". It never fails to motivate the MAGA "faithful". It's like mass hypnosis.

 

Well, I still like that The Donald wasn't Hillary. That he makes the left lose their **** doesn't hurt him in my book. They don't seem to realize that they have opened Pandora's box turning the DOJ and cherry-picked state courts to do their political bidding. What comes around, goes around. I just hope I live long enough to the the US dissolve. I really don't want to be in the same country as California or Texas.

 

Among the more idiotic of assessments ever made in this forum. The swamp in question has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with our overweening bureaucracy. The swamp is DC itself. It is as can be seen by the fact that nothing other than the names on a very few doors ever changes, what the people want changed. Politics is always a dirty business, going back to the days when the Greeks by popular vote forced Socrates to drink hemlock for asking uncomfortable question. We are well aware that Joe isn't going to drain that swamp he is part of it.

 

Trump is a swamp unto himself, and he didn't clean out the swamp that is the deep state as far as we can see, but he does maintain the image of not being controlled by that swamp, as most other politicians are, and Biden is. He mouths off at it occasionally rather than defending it. Ruled by his ego, he cooperates with it when it soothes his ego, more like a useful idiot for it than like an conscious agent of it. He is ruled more by ego than by the deep state, and that's something many prefer, especially when up against a historically bad candidate like Hillary or Biden.

It's truly sad stare of affairs when so many are so distrustful of the government system that they would prefer Trump. You really ought to do something about that; run somebody who actually will clean the swamp rather than enforce it like Biden will or run parallel to it allowing it to use him like Trump will. Break the 2 party system. RFK, Cornel West, etc.

 

Opening the border to Chinese Nationals is the last proof we need that the swamp has been in power for 3 years.

 

Trump is the swamp -- LOL.
Trump hasn't lived in Washington DC all his life and he hasn't lived off the government teat all his life. Four years of his admin has proven he is good for the USA.

 

America has become severely divided- and that in itself can be fatal, regardless of the justifications.
The number of people embracing denialism, the rejection of truth they don't like- seems to be growing exponentially. Voluntary self-deception.
The number of people supporting or presenting solutions is outnumbered by the people who promote hate, complaining and delusion- at least 500 to one, perhaps much higher.
"The bar"; the social standard of values and pride requiring honesty and civility in order to retain self respect and an orderly society, is not being lowered. It's been discarded and is in free fall, where the tolerance of conduct and nonsense rise and the reliance on common sense decline. The things that make productive relationships between possible are going with it.

Yes, this IS a post relevant to the thread. The mindset that allows people to lie to themselves is relevant. That applies to any group, and when that is tolerated it becomes the lowest common denominator dragging everyone into it. That mindset threatens the very existence of this nation right now. It makes revenge for whatever delusion one has more important than the future not only of self, but of all the rest of society.

It's a very difficult problem to solve, because the desire and ability to hate is available and easy, and self-serving. The ability to put that aside, see tomorrow coming and what we must do to make it better-
Is much different. It requires you to see and want something more than momentary gratification. It takes vision, maturity, values- and courage. You can't legislate or gift these things to people, they come from the inside, and the individual has to decide they are valuable enough to embrace them and live by them. Those are the people who build great nations strong families and heathy societies. Some are leaders, most are everyday people- unsung heroes, keeping their house in order and working for tomorrow.

There will always be people incapable of doing better. But if they outnumber those who can and would, they wind up screwing everybody, including themselves- and their children, and future generations.
I'm old. While our technology and knowledge has expanded and improved dramatically in my lifetime- the capacity of people has done the opposite. The technology of personal life management, how to make the most of who we are- seems to have been discarded as no longer needed.

Today, we have supersonic capacities available to the average person- but almost no pilots, people who can use them well. We have not only failed to improve our most important asset- people- we have degraded their ability to think effectively. As I read this thread, one far more common than unique, I don't see that changing. But I fear for the future, of everyone. If we can't do better- there is none.

 

Sincere question - how is the bureaucracy going to be dismantled in order to drain the swamp? Is it the overhaul of the federal government? Is it getting rid of lifetime politicians? I don't disagree with you that 'the swamp is DC itself', but I'm hard pressed to know how the swamp will be drained without removing certain politicians.

 

No one said it is going to be easy least of all me. First way too much of it is unionized which means you just can't step in on day one fire everyone in the department and shut the doors. And sadly draining the swamp requires congressional support which you will never get from Democrat office holders who generally exist in an at best symbiotic relationship with the swamp which feeds their campaigns crap loads of money for giving them more power hence most laws currently written in congress simply direct this or that bureaucracy to write some more rules and regulations. So because of that the only work around is zero that departments budget, wait for them to all give up and go home and then sell the buildings.

 

One big step is to take the large and power wielding money out of politics/campaigns. Get rid of citizens united. Lower the allowable donation amount. Minimize the campaign time allowed for election. Other countries manage with only a few months, but we make it a two year event!

 

Make every current Congress member wear the logos of their sponsors. The people that vote for them should knows who has the access. And yes, Citizen United isn't working for democracy, even SCOTUS defacto benefited from it. It's legalized corruption, obfuscation.

 

But that all but guarantees stagnation. The fact of the matter is that it takes a crap load of money just to over come an incumbents advantage in Name recognition shortening the election cycle and stripping out the money over the long haul is little more than an incumbent protection plan. You want to really shake up the election things increase individual donations to a thousand dollars and out law political pacs that's where the real money abuse is anyway.

 

Trump isn't the one employing lawfare against political opponents.

 

Given that experience in that area seems to be a net negative...

 

It is only an incumbent's advantage if the country recognizes a job well done. If they've been a spectacularly bad POTUS, a challenger is at the advantage.

And yes, overturning CU would certainly get rid of the PACS. I'm okay with $1000 individual contribution max.

 

I LOVE that idea. Like professional athletes, politicians should be advertising for their corporate donors by way of labels on their lapels.

 

Let me tell you a story of how name recognition works. The was a comedian round this parts named Will Rodgers his grandson ran for governor for nearly thirty years never spent a dime or any time actually campaigning but more than once came close enough to force a run off never mind that the only thing he had going for him was name recognition. Name recognition is almost never connected to real accomplishments just having been in the News, The rule of thumb used to be that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Having your name in the news is a good thing what for only of secondary importance. And please over turning CU would have no impact on PACs what ever as they were a product of the proceeding round of election reform. When politicians talk about taking dirty money out of politics it is always about reducing the possibility of their challengers to succeed and that's true regardless of the letter after their name.

 

Yes the swamp took generations to percolate. Trump was not a part of it. It formed through concession, greed and a massive growth of government. Barrack Hussein Obama was the "grandmaster" and with the aid of Hillary they pulled it all together and weaponized the government..

Trump could not have been a part of that. He only had four years.