Which is worse, forced pregnancy, or forced abortion?

There were just as many abortions when it was illegal, but it was more dangerous. Not all illegal abortions were done in clinic settings, many were done on kitchen tables.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html

A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely. Globally, abortion accounts for 13 percent of women’s deaths during pregnancy and childbirth, and there are 31 abortions for every 100 live births, the study said.

 

They already had a choice over getting pregnant. I do not want to take away their choice, I just want to make it expire after a certain time period, and suspend it within a 9 month window.

Fact is, the fetus is not getting any choice here, so neither should the woman.

 

And yet OKgrannie links to a source from the New York Times.

You do realize that New York is the abortion capital of America. There's no other place in the world that's more pro-abortion. ( except perhaps China )

 

Yes , and I'd like to make all YOUR choices expire with time but I don't have the right to do that and you don't have the right to infringe on other's choices.

Why do you think you can infringe on other's right?

Why do you NEED to?





"""""Fact is, the fetus is not getting any choice here, so neither should the woman""""


Fact is the fetus doesn't have a say in it and the woman does...the fact that the woman can have that choice is what really bothers Anti-Choicers/Anti-Women people.



Next time you make a bad investment or buy a car that's a lemon or purchase a house with hidden problems then YOU must not make any changes to rectify the situation...afterall YOU made your choice at the time and now I believe you get no more choices...fair enough???

 

Deflecting now? So I take it you do not have a reliable source for your information and we may dismiss it as lies/propaganda?

 

There are so many problems with your type of mindset, its tough to know where to begin in straightening you out. Did you ever consider the feelings of the man involved with this baby to be? Why is suicide against the law, yet murder of your own baby-to-be is not? Its pretty hard to stop someone from killing themself, but not as difficult to stop someone from killing their own progeny. If every woman of child bearing age were to think and or behave like you would concerning abortion and the selfish reasons you have for wanting to destroy human life...wouldn't that spell the end of human life on earth as we know it? People that support abortion are in my mind nothing short of monsters. And isn't it a fact that the Chinese are already mutilating the reproductive organs of child bearing women? I suppose that little procedure is perfectly acceptable in your little book of personal liberties and personal choices.

 

Sorry but I don't let people try to control me in such a way. If you want to 'straighten' people out you may want to find someone else who is willing to partake in this with you.

Only one person can ultimately decide what to do in this situation and it is the woman. If she wishes to have the input of the man who got her pregnant she will ask him. Does it really matter though? Because if he wants her to abort you would disagree with him anyways and feel that he suddenly should have no say, wouldn't you?

Quite frankly I do not know why suicide is against the law because if a person is going to kill themselves they will do it and nobody can stop them, not even the law. Also your fallacies here are noted, red herring and appeal to law.

Agreed.

I disagree, if by 'killing their own progeny' you mean 'have an abortion' then you would be very wrong here. With the prevalence of abortifacients and obtaining them through the Internet nowadays it would not be difficult at all for a woman to obtain an illegal abortion by forcing herself to miscarry with drugs and other medicinal herbs/techniques.

First and foremost I would like to state that not every single woman thinks just like me, nor do I expect them to. I do however expect them to respect my right to privacy and my right to govern my own body without their interference.

Second of all most women who are pro-choice, like myself for example, simply believe we have a right to delay our motherhood or space apart our children and determine the number we want to have appropriately. Most pro-choice women WANT to have children and many already do.

Your assumption that pro-choice women never want to reproduce is just so very wrong and incorrect. Pro-choice women come from all walks of life, we are not all the same.

Now considering the rate at which our population is growing I would say that we are far more likely to make ourselves go extinct once we have destroyed and used up all of our resources due to overpopulation. When that happens I imagine women will be seeking abortions left and right out of the desperate need to spare their own children of living in a destitute world. But that is just my personal speculation in regards to human extinction, which by the way is probably not as horrible as you want to think it is. This world without humans would go on just fine without us just as many other planets go on fine without us.

And that is your opinion. You have a right to have it. I strongly disagree, however. I simply believe we should have a right to govern our own bodies and that no one should have a right to take that away from us. If a woman is pro-life she has every right to give birth to every single child she becomes pregnant with and no one has a right to force her into anything otherwise. Same goes for pro-choice women, they may choose to abort or choose to give birth if that is their wish.

These are our reproductive rights and no matter what you think I will do whatever I can to maintain them.

I wouldn't know. I haven't heard anything about this. I live in the US and have absolutely no say in how the Chinese government runs itself.

Actually no. In regards to genital mutilation, whether it is for a male or a female I am strongly against it. It goes against that person's right to control and make choices about their own autonomy.

 

What about people who support the government, rather than the individual, making a potentially life changing decision affecting their own body? Do you support its right to make that decision?

- - - Updated - - -

What about people who support the government, rather than the individual, making a potentially life changing decision affecting their own body? Do you support its right to make that decision?

 

Great point indeed, so long as they support of a government that gives $$ toward the abortion process.

 

Please discuss the topic respectfully. If you can't, please move on.

Thanks
Shangrila
Site Moderator

 

I'm sorry, but I can't make head or tail out of that statement.

It is illegal to use federal funds for abortion. Personally, I think it should stay illegal. The government should take no part in the decision at all.

 

In the early stages of pregnancy abortion amounts to no more than killing a few human cells.

Bllions of human cells die every day in the average adult. Does this make you sad ?

 

The thing that needs straightening out here is the large number of fallacies. How can you murder a baby to be ?

A baby to be is a baby that does not exist yet. How can you kill something that does not yet exist ?

The rest of your argument fails to the same fallacy (assuming that something that does not exist, exists)

The monsters are the weak minded people that want to take away a woman's constitutionally protected rights (individual liberty) on the basis of something that does not exist.

 

This isn't really a question for which there is one objective answer. It's going to be completely dependent on the woman. For me right now imagining myself as a woman, I would probably go with forced pregnancy being worse. That still leaves me with options.

I can't stress enough though, that forced anything in these situations is unequivocally bad.

 

Pregnant girlfriend tricked into taking abortion pill; 'The baby was lost'

The father of the baby was the son of the doctor so he forged his father's name on a script for an abortion pill after his former girl friend told him she needed antibiotics for a mild infection. Now he faces federal charges for murder.
(a news report video can be found at the site )


So when his girlfriend got pregnant, prosecutors say, Welden faked a prescription for an abortion pill, switched a label so the medication appeared to be a common antibiotic, and gave her the drug.

The drug did its job. The unborn baby died.

"In my years as a prosecutor, this case is one of the most shocking and premeditated cases I've seen," Assistant U.S. Attorney W. Stephen Muldrow told U.S. Magistrate Anthony Porcelli during a hearing Wednesday.

Now Welden, 28, is facing the possibility of life behind bars without parole, charged with murder under a rarely used federal statute known as the "Protection of Unborn Children Act." He also is charged with tampering with a prescription "under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference" to the risk of death or injury.

Muldrow said Welden was involved in a relationship with the woman, who told him in March that she was pregnant.

Muldrow said Weldon wanted her to have an abortion, but the woman told him she would raise the child without his help and without any expectations from him.

The woman didn't have medical insurance so Welden arranged for her to see his father, Stephen Welden, a practicing OB/GYN doctor. On March 28, the woman had a sonogram and learned her unborn baby was viable and healthy, Muldrow said.

"In a cold, premeditated fashion," Muldrow said, Welden forged his father's signature to obtain a prescription for the abortion drug Misoprostol, also known as Cytotec. On March 29, Welden obtained the drug from a local pharmacy and removed the label, replacing it with one that said Amoxicillin, a common antibiotic, and the woman's name. Weldon then altered the pills so they would not be identifiable and told the woman that his father told him she had a bacterial infection, Muldrow said.

The next morning, the woman took the pill before going to work. She began having abdominal pains and began bleeding. She went to the hospital, Muldrow said. "The baby was lost."

Later, with Hillsborough County Sheriff's investigators recording, the woman called Welden and said, "What did you give me, Andrew?"
"Cytotec," Welden said, according to Muldrow. "He admits throughout the recoding that he knew the pills were going to cause contractions," Muldrow said. He also "confesses to the premeditated nature of the crime."

Muldrow said Welden "confesses that he had tampered with the pill bottle, that he put a fake label on the bottle." Muldrow said Welden said he used a label maker to make the bogus label. Muldrow said Welden at some point tried to retrieve the bottle, claiming there was a problem with the medicine and he wanted to get his money back. Muldrow said this was an attempt by Welden to tamper with evidence. Sheriff's investigators later interviewed Welden, who described in detail what he did, Muldrow said. "Quite frankly, your honor, this case shocks the conscience," Muldrow told Porcelli. "This was a senseless crime. He had no reason to kill the baby - his baby. She had a name for the baby. This case is solid. The crime is heinous."

Defense attorney David Weisbrod told the judge Welden has strong ties to the community and no criminal background. The defendant's father and stepmother were in court to support him but did not want to speak to reporters.

"This is an unusual event, obviously," Weisbrod told Porcelli. "It is by all appearances an aberrant act in this defendant's past, if the government is able to prove its case." The defense lawyer said Welden's parents were prepared to post their house in Lutz as collateral to secure Welden's release. Weisbrod also suggested Welden be released and placed on electronic monitoring while the case is pending. Muldrow said Welden admitted to the court's pretrial services that he had used marijuana daily since he was 15 or 16. The prosecutor said the Weldens own five properties in Hillsborough County and have the means to help him flee if he is released. Porcelli ordered Welden held without bail. "The nature of the offense is, as Mr. Muldrow described, shocking and horrific," he said.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ricked-abortion-pill-20130516,0,3219897.story

 

Forced pregnancy is way worse.

 

Are you just saying that because you want women to be able to get abortions?

 

Your post has nothing to do with the OP....it's about murder.

 

Pharmacy Mistakenly Gives Pregnant Woman Abortion Pill

She is six weeks pregnant and when she went to the pharmacy to pick up an antibiotic her doctor had prescribed, the pharmacist gave her an abortion drug by mistake.
Mareena Silva might lose her unborn child because of the prescription drug error.

"I took it because I thought it was mine," Silva said.

Silva said the pharmacist at the Ft. Lupton Safeway gave her the prescription of methotrexate. Methotrexate is used in chemotherapy regimens to treat cancer, but it is also used to terminate early-stage pregnancies.

After she took it, Silva was nauseated.

"I came back and I looked at the bottle and it wasn't my name," she said.

The methotrexate was intended for a 59-year-old woman with the exact same last name as Silva's and a similar first name.

"My doctor immediately told me to try and make myself vomit to see if I could get the medicine to come back up," Silva said.

Silva was then rushed to Platte Valley Medical Center where they gave her charcoal to absorb the drug.

"For all this to happen now is really overwhelming," said Silva. "This is my first child, so it's really difficult to deal with."

When 7NEWS asked, Safeway admitted its pharmacy mixed up prescriptions.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/pharmacy-mistakenly-gives-pregnant-woman-abortion-pill

 

and this relevant how, or are you trying to form a bridge between a mix-up and forced abortion, if so then you are more deluded than I thought.

 

Showing that forced abortion is not just hypothetical, it actually happens. There are various situations where a pregnant woman can be given an abortion without her choosing it.

 

Anders, even you cannot be that dense .. do you know the difference between being forced to do something and something happening due to an error?

I'm sorry Anders but your comments just get more and more obtuse, trying to label an error as a forced abortion is just stupidity on your part.

 

Okay, then which is worse, accidentally taking an abortion pill and loosing your unborn child, or accidentally getting pregnant in a country that doesn't allow abortion?

(for the sake of argument, let us suppose you landed yourself in prison and didn't realize you were pregnant until after you had already been arrested, or some situation like that so there is no possibility of getting an abortion)


I am just trying to show that the fetus really does have intrinsic value as a child. Perhaps not quite as much as a fully developed baby, but it does have some humanity.

 

Surely, like the rest of us, you could figure this out with your own vagina.

 

The vagina, that I don't have, is telling me to ask a smart man who knows what's best for me.

Honestly, where are you going with this?