Who do you support? Israel, Palestine, none, both, it’s complicated?

I am one who supports neither side. I bet most Indies support neither side or both. Israel is mostly supported by RW so called christians on this forum.

This forum leans quite a bit to the right. About 66%.
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...p-do-you-consider-yourself-closest-to.614566/

 

Where do you get that?
Hamas, Hezbollah, and virtually the entire Islamic world, following the unambiguous teachings in their holy book, the Quran, are determined to convert or fight against everyone they call "infidels"....

Terror organizations I can agree with. But not the entirety of the Islamic world.
...
By
Huda
Updated on January 16, 2018
Some people maintain that there some verses of the Qur'an -- Islam's holy book -- that condone "killing the infidel"?


It is true that the Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- in other words, if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop the aggression. All of the verses in the Qur'an that speak about fighting/war are in this context.


There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by critics of Islam discussing "jihadism," or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.


"Slay Them" -- If They Attack You First
For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:
https://www.learnreligions.com/are-there-quranic-verses-endorsing-violence-against-infidels-2004642

 

I didn't say the entire Islamic world, Dairy, I said virtually the entire Islamic world. There is a difference, but do not doubt what devout Muslims believe -- it's all right there in their holy book, the Quran. Did you read the verses from the Quran at the site I provided? Evidently not.

But, let's just take your quote that you evidently think is representative of the Muslim 'mindset' about how to interact with people who are "infidels". It was, "Slay Them" -- If They Attack You First".... right?

OK, just examining the issue in Gaza that commands our attention at the moment -- who attacked who 'first'? Did Hamas attack Israel first, or, did Israel attack Hamas first? No matter how you choose to 'slice it and dice it', these Islamic Hamas jihadis are the perpetrators -- but the overall point that towers above everything else is that, as devout Muslims, they are only doing what their religion COMMANDS them to do!

 

The citizens of Palestine in Gaza are currently governed by Hamas. The citizens of Gaza rejected by vote the rule of Fatah who entertains talk of a two state solution, in favor of Hamas who demands the elimination of the state of Israel.

 

Yep

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Millions of jews from across the Islamic world, tired of their "state of subjection", have made Israel their home. Devout muslims cannot tolerate non islamic rule in close proximity to the heart of Islamic land.

 

"All of the verses"??? Thats nonsense. Koran has the Meccan and Medinan verses. The Meccan verses written when muhammad lived in Mecca where even his own tribe of people were opposed to his religion of Islam. The more peaceful and tolerant verses. THEN he conquered Medina and wrote the more violent and intolerant verses.
The "Immunity" verses demonstrate the shift well.
The Koran (umich.edu)

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

FIRST action of the first Islamic caliphate following muhammads death was to wage the Wars of Apostasy against Islamic tribes because they dared stop paying the "poor-rate" required above to Mecca.

 

You make some good points and I do not think we are too far apart on other points. Tactically it was an advantageous move by Hamas to use human shields, although it was also immoral. Yet it was also immoral for Israel to so heavily bomb civilian areas. I think I understand why Israel used such heavy handed tactics. A comparatively light bombing pre ground invasion would mean more resistance thus more Israeli military casualties upon the commencement of the ground invasion. I think the average Israeli would prefer less Israeli military deaths at the cost of massive Palestinian civilians deaths. I think many westerners feel the same way.

As for combating the more radical branches of Islam I think killing Palestinian civilians simply creates more animosity in the Middle East and thus ensuring more violence towards Israel in the future. I think Hamas targeting civilians is being used as a justification by Israel’s supporters to inflict grievous harm to a citizenry they see as supporting Hamas just as Hamas supporters use their own grievances to justify the attack against Israeli civilians. The cycle goes round and round as both sides are simultaneously victim and victimizer. To break this cycle of violence both sides need to see how they victimize the other and have compassion for how this harms the other side. Sadly this is not our nature as our nature is an eye for an eye thus ensuring the insanity continues. Our tribalistic nature is me and mine at the expense of you and yours.

As long as each side continues to justify atrocities against one another the cycle of violence will continue. Both can claim to be blameless in the conflict but neither are.

I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me about this along with your civility in doing so. Thanks.

 

I'm basically there; I support Israel, and it's still complicated. However one of the complications is that ""kill all the Jews" and "from the river to sea" crap" is the majority of the Palestinian cause. When they are talking about occupied land they are not just talking about the West Bank or Gaza (which wasn't occupied), but Israel itself. They want it all back, and if it's Judenfrie, so much the better.

So ultimately, Israel is civilization, and the other side is savagery.

 

I have to say that I support Israel.....
but I believe that a total paradigm shift is about to happen in the Middle East somehow or another........

I would love to see interested parties discuss the construction of the literal Ezekiel chapter forty complex so that whatever all is meant by Ezekiel chapter forty seven soon becomes a reality because whatever all is meant by that chapter in Ezekiel sounds like it is win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win for Israel.... and all nations that border Israel!!!!

I believe that a true Muslim.....
who understands that the Russians are manipulating Palestinians to be sacrificial pawns in the Russian grand chess game with eight billion variables.......

would want to see the Jews accomplish the construction of the Ezekiel chapter forty to forty eight temple complex.

https://yehezkeel-narod-ru.translat..._sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The construction of the literal Ezekiel chapter forty complex is a key part of:

The Tate Plan for Shalom in the Middle East!


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel 47&version=NKJV
Ezekiel 47:

 

I think if you make a poll asking who do you support, the white ppl or the brown ppl (which effectively is what this poll is) then due to the tribalistic nature of the board, it's going to vote for the white option, no matter how brutal and savage those whites are (half of Gaza has been flattened, say no more)

 

It's an illegal occupation and Palestine has a right to resist. The ongoing genocide is the greatest crime committed by the US in my lifetime. Biden should be tried as a war criminal.

 

I support the Isreali's who have to counter Hamas, and destroy them.
I support the Palatinaian people who have been made to supper Hamas.

I can both support Israel right to defend, yet hate how they are doing it, and also support the palastinian people, who isreal has suppressed. and hamas has used, as being stuck in a horrible inhumane situation.

Its complicated.

Netenyahoooooooo! Is a war criminal imo. Along with the leaders of Hamas.

I feel bad for the Isreali and Palastinian peoples though.