Who would work harder for what they believe? "Pro-life" or Pro-Choice?

Yet again your immaturity and lack of intellect on how to debate shine brighter than your opinion. In order to 'debunk' and argument you first have to be provided with an argument to debunk, if you think your assumptions are an argument then you are severely deluded.

You are the one making the claim .. it is up to you to provide evidence to support that claim .. so where is your evidence Sam, and please don't say something as inept as "common sense", for it is not so common and you certainly don't make any sense.

furthermore asking someone to prove a negative is a fallacy.

Here this might help you understand what informal arguments and debates are about and how to involve yourself in them properly - http://www.wikihow.com/Win-Informal-Arguments-and-Debates

Whose, yours . .and why should your morals be any more valid then any other persons .. why is it that it is only your moral viewpoint that deserves credence?

 

Your arguements are hypocritcal to the core. You say if the fetus was a person, the state would have an obligation to fund all elective abortions, but, according to UVVA laws, a person who causes a miscarriage can be legally charged with murder. What a huge double standard.

 

Blah .. blah.. blah .. answer the questions and stop trying to change the subject.

Where is your evidence that women who have abortions are "selfish" and doing it only for "convenience"?

Why should your morals be any more valid then any other persons .. why is it that it is only your moral viewpoint that deserves credence?

 

No good argument? Change the subject .......and the hamster goes round and round....

 

Because most people agree with me.

 

Tell me when did mob rule take over in the USA, and when you answer that answer these as well

Where is your evidence that women who have abortions are "selfish" and doing it only for "convenience"?

Why should your morals be any more valid then any other persons

 

Prove it with facts, statistics, polls....YOU saying it doesn't make it true...well, maybe in your mind but that doesn't count for anything...

 

Sam, you favor the Roe v. Wade decision?!?!?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/160058/majority-americans-support-roe-wade-decision.aspx


(BTW, if you try to change the subject to a DIFFERENT poll...you'll prove (again) you are dishonest and incapable of admitting when you are wrong)

 

Okay, lets get this thread back on topic...Gorn, I can't help but to notice that you love to create these little fairy tale scenarios where you use words like "would" or "could" or"might" or "maybe"...and then you want to debate these scenarios as if they actually exist. Your little "womb gaestapo" thing is a perfect example of this. Just a little reality check here, "womb gaestapos" do not exist, nor have they ever existed in this country.
Then you say "I can clearly see those who are pro life....Where exactly do you clearly see this? Oh yea in your head, in your own little made up fairy tale world. Do you mean to tell me that if abortion where made illegal that every single pro choicer would stand at arms, and magically turn into some rendition of Harriet Tubman? Again fairy tale unrealistic fictional delusion.
Then you say "I doubt that most pro lifers in that world would...." Well in your fairy tale scenarios you can "doubt" anything you want. I can create a fairy tale in my head and "doubt" that the sun will come up tomorrow...
Then you go on to say "my proof, the current situation, what do they do...MAYBE they..." See what you did here? you said "my proof" and followed it with "maybe". Maybe is not proof...the truth is that you have no clue what all pro lifers do, neither do I, but in your little fairy tale you can pretend that you know what every pro lifer does and then you go on to talk about it as if it where fact...Hmmm I'm starting to see a make believe trend here.

Now, lets get back to the original thread that YOU started, and lets talk about actual real life reality, not your little made up fairy tale land...lets talk about today, tomorrow, and the next day, real world truth....Remember, you started this thread accusing pro lifers as doing nothing, and how pro choicers "would" sacrifice everything for their cause...

In case you don't remember me or my situation, I currently have FIVE children that where saved from abortion, in my care...they are 7, 5, 3, 2, and 9 months old. I also have 2 of my own children 16, and 25. I am hoping to adopt every one of them, I love each and every one of them as if they where my own.
This morning I WILL get up with them, make them breakfast, change 2 diapers, get them dressed, and get the two older ones on the bus for school.
Then I WILL go to work to earn money so that I can provide for them.
When I get home I WILL attend the parent teacher conference for the two older boys and when thats over...
I WILL go home, get them in there PJs, give them a kiss and tuck them into bed.
I WILL do this, more or less, because of course over the years the routines will change, for the 18 to 20 years, every day, until they are educated, employed, and able to go out on their own, no matter what it takes, no matter the sacrifice...this is my every day, real world, not some made up fantasy.
Now I want to know, exactly what it is that YOU WILL do tomorrow, the next day, next week, etc. to positively benefit the whole pro life pro choice situation...
I don't want fairy tale scenarios, I dont want to see words like MAYBE, MIGHT, WOULD, COULD, or SHOULD...I want you to tell me what you DO every day to benefit this situation....remember, your the one, that in your own thread, that you started, talked about how the pro choicers would do so much, and be so motivated, and change the world, while us meek little pro lifers would do nothing...

 

So you allegedly raise kids...uhhh, many people do....what's the big deal?

I benefit the situation by voting for Democrats who aren't against freedom and equality for women.

I do NOT target a group to make their lives harder than it is. That would be cruel and stupid.

I do not push for laws that would clog up the courts and do nothing but make women's lives harder...that would be cruel and stupid.


And HOW exactly did you SAVE your children from abortion? Did pregnant women come to you out of the blue and offer to go through 9 months of pregnancy so you could have a kid? Explain....

 

Really? I've just "made it up"????

This PAST Monday (two days ago), National Review columnist Kevin Williamson endorsed HANGING women who have had abortions.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kevin-williamson-abortion-tweet


Locally, here at PF, we have a young man who is "pro-life" who endorsed (along with an older poster) the idea of having ULTRASOUNDS at airports, that would stop pregnant women from leaving the country (under a national abortion ban) to get abortions-

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=324038&page=15



Did I just "make up" Kevin Williamson? Did I "make up" The Amazing Sam's Ego and Anders Hoveland?

Am I "making up" the desire of many "pro-lifers" to see abortion banned nation-wide...and see that ban enforced by law enforcement?

 

Well you asked "whats the big deal?"...We've saved the lives of 5 beautiful children and to me thats a pretty big deal, apparently, to you, it is not.

I find it rather funny that gorn, in his original thread stated that pro lifers would basically do nothing but vote republican while all pro choicers would become some rendition of arnold schwartzeniger and harriet tubman to join together and save the world.....And you replied by stating all the things that you don't do (do nothing) and you vote democratic...mean while, I'm busy saving the lives of children....Ironic

No, pregnant women didn't "come to us"...they went to planned parenthood to have an abortion, where they met my wife. Shes a pro life sidewalk counselor. they chose not to abort the children, but could not properly provide for them...thats where we stepped in. its a much longer and more detailed story, but I don't really feel like writing a book right now.

 

Yes gorn you do just make it up...you see what you tend to do is take the words of 1 person, or maybe 1 small group of people and then create a fairytale scenario with what they said....Kevin Williamson says he wants all women that have had abortions to hang from trees...he is obviously a nut case. but you will take his words and start a thread like...if pro lifers had there way women would be hanging from trees...or something like that.
14 year old Sam may endorse people at airports sticking ultra sounds into womens vaginas, and so you create a whole fairy tale scenario based on his opinion with womb gestapos etc. etc. That is a fairy tale, womg gastapos don't exist, they never have, and they never will. thats the difference between reality and fairy tale. let me give you an example...
Hey gorn, what will you do when 250 million Christians take to arms and slaughter every single person that has ever been employed by any abortion mill in the country, because thats what they want.
Now any sane person would reply by saying "that would never happen your making up a fairy tale"
And I could respond (like you just did to me), and say "I made this up????? just a few years ago scott roeder, a Christian, took to arms and shot george tiller to death!n so don't tell me that I made it up!" so what are you gonna do gorn? what are you gonna do? you cant answer my question can you? there are aprox 250 million self proclaimed Christians in the us so what are you gonna do?

You see what I just did there? this is what you do all the time....women hanging from trees, ultrasounds at airports, retroactively charging every woman thats had an abortion with murder because there is no statue of limitations, 100's of thousands of pro choicers rising up to be harriet tubmans, pro lifers sneaking around in the bushes to make sure their neighbor didn't get an illegal abortion....all made up fairy tales in your little head, that don't exist, never did exist, and never will.
now lets talk about real life, actual true stuff that is happening. I've told you what I do every day....what do you do every day, what sacrifices have you made every day, to make a difference.

 

Kevin Williamson is not some guy standing on a street corner in sackcloth and ashes.....he is a on-staff columnist for the prestigiousu conservative news magazine "National Review" founded by William F. Buckley.

Sam is 18 years old. And he was not alone.

And YOU explain it. Abortion is made illegal nation-wide...the STATED GOAL of the "pro-life" movement. WIll they want that ban actually enforced? Or just treated as a toothless law to be ignored? Just pass an abortion ban...but don't actually ban abortion??? Well?

If they want to enforce the law...they're going to need law enforcement. They're going to have to make sure women aren't "escaping to Canada to kill their babies and return un-caught". So how do you do that? How do investigate a case of "fetal homicide"? Other crimes aren't going to just go away....you're going to need more cops....perhaps even a "special unit" just to handle the "fetal homicide" cases? It's going to need special training to spot which women have "killed their babies"....versus those who had natural miscarraiges.

250 million Christians don't oppose abortion being legal. Those that do oppose abortion, for the most part, do not support killing doctors....SOME do. Look at the apologia or even cheerleading that Scott Roeder got.

But most "pro-lifers" DO say "Abortion is murder"....do they not really mean it?

No....i went entirely by what the "pro-lifers" SAY they want. See above....answer these simple questions, ctarbonist...

Do most "pro-lifers" consider abortion the same as murder? Yes or No?

Do most "pro-lifers" want abortion banned nationwide? Yes or No?

Would those who want it banned, want the law enforced? Yes or No?

If "Yes" to all.....explain to me HOW you successively enforce a nation-wide abortion ban....without creating a law enforcement condition where fertile-age women are not "monitored"? And if caught "killing their baby" (even if it's self-inducing with a natural abortifacient herb).....you do not punish them as you would any "murderer"?


You see what I've done there? I've taken WHAT THE "PRO-LIFERS" SAY...and asked logical questions off of their own rhetoric and claimed beliefs.

Not "one or two" or "a small group"...but the large portion of those who want abortion made illegal.

 

It would be in the fiction section of the bookstore.


How much did you pay these women?

Gee, a sidewalk counselor sounds so professional

Doesn't sound like you're doing too well with only five....there are millions of children dying everyday...from poverty and starvation and abuse..the ones that are actually here already....better get busy


I do NOT target a group to make their lives harder than it is. That would be cruel and stupid.
I do not push for laws that would clog up the courts and do nothing but make women's lives harder...that would be cruel and stupid.

 

I state that:
I do NOT target a group to make their lives harder than it is. That would be cruel and stupid.
I do not push for laws that would clog up the courts and do nothing but make women's lives harder...that would be cruel and stupid. """


...and you call me a" do nothing"...seriously , your values are warped....

 

Nope, wouldn't be in the fiction section, this is my life, every day. I'm sure that just makes your skin crawl knowing that these five children are alive and thriving, rather than aborted and flushed down the toilet. that must really burn your britches.

We didn't pay them anything.

Your right. a sidewalk counselor isn't very professional, no special degrees involved, no formal education, and the pay sucks...its all voluntary. and she stood out there in the rain, snow, heat of summer and cold of winter. Shes been spit at, pushed, called aweful names, and given the finger and still she perseveres. Through her dedication and love for the unborn she has not only saved the lives of the 5 children we are hoping to adopt but another 8 or so as well.
So fox, let me ask you, now that you've "rolled eyes" at my wifes work...how many childrens lives have you saved? my guess is probably zero.

And again, your right, there are, unfortunately, a lot of poverty stricken starving children in the world which is why I also sponsor a young boy through world vision. His name is Htet Min and he lives in malaysia. I get a nice card and a picture of him once or twice a year along with a progress report.

So what exactly is it that you do on a regular basis to justify your use of oxygen on this planet? Oh wait, I almost forgot, you do nothing, you're real good at posting all the things that you don't do....But you do manage to get out once every two years to get to the voting booths and pull down the big blue lever, then you slither back into your mothers basement and try (unsuccessfully), to belittle people that are actually trying to make a difference in this world...your mama must be so proud, a chip off the old block.

 

And you're teaching that alleged hoard of children to lie and be nasty and insulting to anyone who doesn't agree with you...they are soooo lucky


Maybe instead of spending time on a computer you should actually be taking care of all those kids?? Doesn't your wife need some help after all the hours she spends on the street ??

 

You need to remember you are talking to some people who don't believe the unborn are children. Also, that you didn't "save their lives." You were able to convince some women to save them, at a tremendous physical and emotional cost to themselves, and now you are claiming the glory. Adoption is often a difficult and lifelong struggle for women and the children. I sincerely hope this works out well for everyone.

 

ctarborist....again, I'm going to ask you to defend your charge against me that I'm "making it up"....and answer these questions-


Do most "pro-lifers" consider abortion the same as murder? Yes or No?

Do most "pro-lifers" want abortion banned nationwide? Yes or No?

Would those who want it banned, want the law enforced? Yes or No?

If "Yes" to all.....explain to me HOW you successively enforce a nation-wide abortion ban....without creating a law enforcement condition where fertile-age women are not "monitored"? And if caught "killing their baby" (even if it's self-inducing with a natural abortifacient herb).....you do not punish them as you would any "murderer"?

 

Here's an example of laws based on morals. False advertising is illegal because its dishonest to lie to somebody to make more money.

 

Your confused. There is a difference between laws where someone is directly harmed and "moral laws" where someone is not directly harmed.

In a nutshell

Obviously fraud is directly injurious to someone. One person hurting another person.

This such as Prostitution, Alcohol, Drugs, Abortion are or were laws based on morals or religious beliefs of individuals that do not involve harm of one person to another.

That is the primary distinction to keep in mind. Clearly if one person is scamming another for money this involves direct harm from one person to another.

 

And the best you can do is try to insult me. LMAO
So lets recap...Gorn starts a thread that says "Who would work harder for what they believe pro life or pro choice"
I reply by explaining all that I do for what I believe, and gorn and his side kick little fox come back and insult me for all the work that I do to try to make a difference in the world.
I ask you guys 2 or 3 times to explain to me all the wonderful things that you do and you relied that you vote democratic once every 2 years, and gorn has yet to tell me anything that he does to benefit society.
Its pretty safe to say that even a moron would have to admit that, at least so far in this thread, the pro life side (me) has absolutely smoked the pro choice team because its pretty obvious that my wife and I do more work for our cause by lunchtime every day then you and gorn together do in a month.
But chin up little buddy and keep pulling that big blue lever, because you definitely are a democrat LOL.

 

Exactly which "charge" would you like me to "defend" its tough to articulate, because you make up a lot of stuff.
is it your statement that "executions of women that hab abortions" is becoming a reality? because its not, I have yet to hear about women swinging from trees because they had an abortion, so that is a delusion.

Is it the womb gestapo? Because they do not exist, nor have they ever, nor will they ever.

Is it the intra vaginal ultrasounds at every terminal at every airport? because they do not exist, nor have they ever, nor will they.

Maybe its the uterine monitoring system placed on every single woman that is of capable age to have a baby...Nope none of them either

Or is it the "since abortion is murder and murder has no statute of limitations, if abortion is made illegal then every women that ever had an abortion
will go to jail for life" Uh, no. that would never happen, never has a law been passed and then enforced retroactively.

Or wait, maybe its your "all pro choicers will ban together and become 21st century hariet tubmans" statement that is so realistic.

Exactly which one of these delusional fairy tale scenarios did you not "make up"?

Now regarding your three questions, well, If I wanted to get involved with that circle jerk i would have responded to any one of the 6 or 7 threads that you've already started about that, and maybe someday I will. But this thread (which you also created, in case you forgot) is entitled "who would work harder for their cause, pro lifers or pro choicers?"
Now I've described, pretty clearly, what my wife and I do on a daily basis for our cause, ande I've asked both you and your little mini me fox on at least 2 or 3 occasions to elaborate on all the wonderful things that the 2 of you do and so far mini me stated that he votes democratic once every 2 years, and so far you've simply avoided the question and tried to change the subject.
Any moron that where to read through this thread would have no choice but to realize that my wife and I do more work for our cause by lunch time every day, than both you and your mini me combined do in a month.
So as far as this thread goes, which you started...
YOU LOSE!

 

Nope. False advertising has a detrimental effect on society, abortion doesn't.

Still waiting for your answers to the following;

Tell me when did mob rule take over in the USA, and when you answer that answer these as well

Where is your evidence that women who have abortions are "selfish" and doing it only for "convenience"?