Stop trying to justify abortions to me by talking about the woman's supposed "bodily rights", and please just answer this specific question-why is the fetus a subhuman? Why is the fetus NOT a person? Please answer this specific question, pro choicers.
What happened you are unable to refute that point so you are asking others from making it? Because it was never declared to be one. Personhood is human construct and it has never included fetuses. You can stomp your feet all you want, but that will not alter this reality. Further more, if you wish to conduct civilized and intelligently reasoned debate, the burden is on you to show evidence for something you assert. It is a weak position to ask others to prove a negative.
I have said this many times but here we go again; Until a fetus has developed a brain they cannot be self aware hence they are still a fetus and not a baby/person, logic is the answer and a doctor determining when that occurs is the answer not a bunch of lawyers in a State government. And yes, I am against abortion at yhat point unless real and serious medical conditions exist that justify the procedure. FYI did you ever bother to define what you consider a person to be when I asked you and provided several choices? I do not recall seeing your answer.
If they are simply in a coma they are still human, it is even done on purpose sometimes, but if they are brain dead they are gone and no they are no longer a person since they have left the house and cannot and will not return. I have explained this to you before, as have others, do try and keep the facts presented to you in your head or write them down for future reference. You have still not answered my question, yet you ask others to answer yours.
What you care about is irrelevant as is your limitation in understanding the the facts as they are. By the way, I made no mention of bodily rights, so why introduce that term into the discussion? You also seem to be unable to provide any compelling evidence why a fetus should be a person.
Yes I can. If you can provide some arguments about why the fetus isn't a person, then I can come up with some very good counterarguments to your statements.
Your strawman is already dead, you have beaten it to death so move on. Subhuman is just another term introduced by those who lack understanding and knowledge on the topic.
Perhaps you should at least attempt to understand how intelligent debate is conducted. Asking to prove a negative is not a good strategy and betrays serious lacking. So if you do in fact have ANY compelling arguments why a fetus should be a preson by all means please go ahead and put them forth. - - - Updated - - - Right by you who can not provide anything to support your position.
Congress voted that if a pregnant women commits a crime worthy of capital punishment, then they must wait before she gives birth before they execute her. Maybe they wanted to protect the fetus? Why else would they wait until she gives birth before the execution takes place? Even the pro choicers voted in favor of this. The fetus is a person, plain in simple. Just please, stop being so in denial. You pro choicers know that you're so wrong. - - - Updated - - - Yes I can.
and that same woman can apply for and get an abortion if she wishes. That law is based around the woman WANTING the child to be born, not that the fetus is a person, so you have not made any point at all. You, like so many pro-lifers, seem to think that laws such as this one and the UVOVA are based around the personhood of the fetus, they are not and anyone with even the slightest bit of legal knowledge would know that.
Maybe they would have declared then all fetuses as persons instead? But wait they did not... No it still is not, abortion IS still legal and will remain so and you have provided NOTHING to support your position. No denial, just recognizing reality. Not at all... No you can not. If you could you would.
SO WHAT IF ABORTIONS ARE LEGAL? THE HOLOCAUST WAS ALSO LEGAL TOO, DURING THE 1940s! Anybody that uses these stupid circular arguments (which is what some pro choicers use) is automatically speaking false opinions! So, abortion should be legal, just because it's legal already? Honestly, circular arguments are automatically false arguments.
You have some serious comprehension issues and are attempting to mask them by accusing others of circular reasoning, no to mention the hypocrisy you exhibit by doing it yourself. Let me attempt to explain it to you. In light of your assertion that because Congress voted to postpone executions of pregnant women, you implied that somehow that makes fetuses persons. It does not, because if it did then abortions would become illegal. The fact that they are still legal proves that your argument failed as usual.
*sigh* Once again, I wish one of my three pro life buddies was here to help me out with this debate. When you pro choicers play word games with your debates, it only strengthens my confidence in knowing how right I am and how wrong you guys are, since all you use is these circular and off-topic arguments, since that's all you can use, because you're wrong and I'm right! How else can you explain Congress voting to postpone the executions of pregnant women, if all fetuses are just subhumans? Hahahha you cannot, because you know that you're absolutely wrong!
I already did. If as you allude that this law means a fetus is a person, why can a woman in prison still get an abortion if she wishes to? That law is based around the woman WANTING the child to be born, not that the fetus is a person, so you have not made any point at all. You, like so many pro-lifers, seem to think that laws such as this one and the UVOVA are based around the personhood of the fetus, they are not and anyone with even the slightest bit of legal knowledge would know that.
Honestly, it doesn't matter whether a fetus is a person or subhuman. Those are just fairly arbitrary titles, and the discussion should really be about the merits of abortion itself. Is a fetus aware of it's existence? Does it have the emotional attachment to it's life? Can it even express some form of desire? How about pain? If not, then it doesn't matter whether a fetus gets aborted or not. If the unborn is unaffected by an abortion then this is a non-issue. The personhood debate is just one big, red herring.
Based on many posts I've read from the OP it seems like he truly feels that all abortion is wrong. I can respect another person's view on this issue. What I find troubling are the non-nonsensical and confusing topics that are posted in support of the position. Instead of simply stating "I believe that all abortions are wrong because I believe that a person exists at the time of conception, we're forced to endure what I feel is confusion. Why if the fetus a subhuman? For me, I can say I don't view a fetus as a person at any time during the first trimester. After 13 weeks the science changes and become much less clear. When I was faced with abortion, I was adamantly against it. As a result of my determination, among things, I have my Son and now my Granddaughter. I'm grateful. Nonetheless, I do not believe it is my place to impose my beliefs, about abortion, on others. It's no more complicated than that. OP, rather than attempt to dazzle everyone with your what if's and you saids, why not focus on understanding why you feel the way do and discuss that. IMHO, you will have much better debate. Peace!
Yea, I can imagine not being able to make an intelligent and well reasoned argument to support your position can be frustrating. Then again, if you are unable to do so why participate in debates? Why not learn more about the topic first? Again you are just underscoring your inability to support your position. No word games here at all, only facts, facts that your either unable to understand or refuse to accept, but facts they are. Your inability strengthens your confidence? That is, well unique... Clearly you have no clue what a circular argument is, so please stop using that excuse for your lacking. Instead look up appeal to authority fallacy and try to understand why your example of why death row women can postpone execution falls in that category. yes and you are a legend in your own mind too...
