OK...Thanks. I don't agree with you but I respect your belief and understand it. Now I wonder why Anders has not replied? AboveAlpha
Anders...if you could...at WHAT stage? Your sentence indicates that a specific STAGE of development is the determining factor for when and if you believe an abortion would be justified. But even though this is what can be gathered from this sentence of yours...your other reply contradicts it to a point and that is why I am asking you to clarify. So....how about it? AboveAlpha
Ander's...it has been quite some time since I asked you to clarify your position and as I know you are on the forum I have to assume you are refusing to do so either because you are angry that I would ask you to answer questions that your true answers to would be JUSTIFYING ABORTION is some extreme cases. I KNOW you can't possibly be a person who would if given the authority to determine whether or not a woman would live or die due to your decision upon allowing her to get an abortion...would be a person to say no. The reality is regardless of anyone's beliefs and regardless if that person is Pro-Choice or Pro-Life...there will ALWAYS be conditions and factors that MUST be taken into account to determine whether or not an Abortion is justifiable. For a Pro-Choice individual to state that destroying a Healthy Fetus within a Healthy Mother very late during the pregnancy is justifiable is simply MORALLY AND LOGICALLY UNACCEPTABLE. As well...for a Pro-Life individual to state an Abortion should NEVER be done or justified and illegal for a Mother who's Health or Life is at risk as well as if a Fetus is extremely deformed and even if it lives being born would only have a short life of Pain ans Anguish....such a position as well is MORALLY AND LOGICALLY UNACCEPTABLE. It is time for some people to GROW UP and understand that nothing is BLACK AND WHITE. In Real Life....things are many shades of GREY. AboveAlpha
Looks more like the people in the pictures have placed their fingers into the hand, not that the baby is grasping them. - - - Updated - - - Yet again the question must be asked of one of your unsupported posts .. where is the evidence that a fetus "screams" in pain during saline abortions?
Well, most fetuses can't scream yet, but they can swim... http://nation.foxnews.com/gosnell-a...surviving-baby-swimming-toilet-trying-get-out http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/st...let-if-baby-comes-abortion-worker-tells-27-w/ http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/un...worker-tells-woman-to-flush-baby-down-toilet/ Babies under 6 months of age have a primitive swimming reflex. Most people do not know this, but if you drop one in a pool of water they hold their breath and start swimming under water with salamander-like body movements. http://www.babyswimming.co.uk/divingreflex.html Here is an old video footage of a baby, who had been born just 11 days prior, placed in a baby pool to demonstrate the phenomena: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW5p2G4EtP0 Not really that surprising, considering these fetuses have already been swimming around in the womb for 9 months.
I know you don't know me well, but I started to get to know you. The comfort of your warm womb. The steady and ever so reassuring rythm of your sweet heart. Your warm, nourishing life flowing through me. I want to let you know how very much I miss our short time together. Mommy, I'm so sorry I made you feel bad, or frightened or hurt. I wanted to be a good baby. I really did. During my short time with you I slept so much and my dreams were filled with such wonderful and beautiful images of us together as a family. You holding me in your arms. Watching me grow. Keeping me safe. Teaching me love. But I don't know what I did to make you send me away. I wish I could ask you Mommy. Why? Mommy, I wish I could have told you that I really wanted to live and that I didn't want to die. How much I loved you and needed you and how much I really, really wanted to make you happy with me. If I could try again, I promise I would do better. While me and the other babies all wait here, some of the other babies try to tell me that it wasn't my fault. They say that someone else, some stranger who didn't know me or you, told you that I wasn't real. That I wasn't a person like you. But I was. It hurt, Mommy. It hurt. Love, Baby
So your original premise was false .. and then you try misdirection to escape your fallacy. If it was in the toilet it was born, where is the prove of "swimming" in the womb. Life site news, need I say anything more .. Lila Rose and her edited video's do so much good for the pro-choice campaign. Yep another born baby, still nothing on "swimming" in the womb. Yep old video of a BORN baby, still nothing about "swimming" in the womb. Considering not one of the above links actually proves your premise of a fetus "swimming" in the womb I can assume this is just another of your inane posts with no real substance to it. Now which direction would you like to go off on a tangent this time, or can you provide some evidence for your first assertion that a fetus screams in the womb? - - - Updated - - - Can you post a picture of the fetus that wrote this, or is it just another pro-lifer playing on emotional feelings.
Why doesn't Anders Hoveland just admit that he really isn't pro life, and that his pro-life statements are just a ruse for him to express his racist statements?
Pro-choicers bring up a racist argument every time they claim there are too many children in orphanages, and so abortion should be allowed to deal with the problem. If we take a look at these "unwanted children" in the orphanages, it quickly becomes apparent why their argument is racist.
Ander's...I am a bit confused. Considering that you sent me a PM with a very nice complement as well stating that you looked forward to engaging me with conversation and debate...and I replied that I as well looked forward to doing this as well....I really cannot understand why you refuse to reply to my question? I have no intentions of cornering a person with my debating skills I just wanted you to clarify your position as your original reply was ambiguous at best and I am not certain of what exactly is your position regarding either allowing or not an abortion in the event the Mother could die or he health be at risk? As well I am not certain what your position might specifically be in the event of specific developmental defects of the fetus such as the list I posted for Sam. Now I respect the right of EVERYONE to believe as they will and this issue is no different. If you could reply I would be most grateful. AboveAlpha
Yet again you twist and squirm away from the truth, what you fail to see is that an increase in children in care is not a reason to keep abortion legal, it is a consequence of making abortion illegal .. The difference between you and most, if not all, pro-choicers is that you see the problem purely based on skin color where as we see it as a problem based on social inequality. You never examine the root causes of problems, you just jump on a bandwagon that seems to adhere to your ideology, which has been amply shown to be a purely discriminative one, be it against skin color, disability or women in general. You identify with pro-life simple because it provides a convenient avenue to vomit your views.
I want to SAVE black babies. What do you want to do with them?? Oh, I forgot, you say they're not people. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Anders Hoveland, you are a very racist person. Fugazi has told me all about you. Also, please just check out this thread, where people are discussing whether or not you really are a racist person or not. http://www.politicalforum.com/abortion/310780-scriptures-abortion-d-behaviors.html
And you think Fugazi is a reliable source of information? Ask him what he wants to do with those interracial fetuses... the ones who are already 6 months old and were not conceived through rape... If I were an interracial fetus, I would much rather have Anders Hoveland deciding my fate than Fugazi. I think I would have much better odds of survival !
How many sites do I post on? Feel free to post any comments I have made. (and if you could, please do it in the 'Do the Unborn Constitute a Race?' thread so we do not derail the discussion in this thread)
Everyone Knows The feeling of a life being killed is a common thread throughout the testimonies of women before, during, and after an abortion. According to one woman, interviewed in a clinic's waiting room: "It's killing. But it is justifiable homicide." Another, shortly after her abortion, says: "Like when you have an abortion you're just destroying a part of yourself. That's the way I feel anyhow. I just feel bad inside, that's all. I didn't really want to do it." Still another woman, describes her feelings after an abortion, saying: "I hated myself. I felt abandoned and lost. There was no one's shoulder to cry on, and I wanted to cry like hell. And I felt guilty about killing something. I couldn't get it out of my head that I'd just killed a baby." In interviews with 40 women shortly after their abortions, sociologist Mary Zimmerman avoided any questions regarding the woman's view of the nature of the human fetus in order to avoid upsetting the women. Yet even when this question was left unasked, it was clearly on the minds of the women since most of them chose to reveal at least some hint of their opinion during the interview. Nearly 25 percent explicitly stated that the aborted fetus was a life, a person, or a human being. In many of these cases, they admitted a sense of having killed or murdered another being. Another 25 percent expressed confusion about the nature of the fetus. In these cases, the women generally believed the fetus was human but denied that abortion was killing. Zimmerman suggests that this contradictory stance was taken in order maintain their self-images as moral persons. Finally, only 15 percent maintained that the fetus was not a person or human life, but even these women expressed themselves in terms of denial rather than with arguments to support their beliefs, stating, for example, "I feel that it's something there, but I don't really feel that it's a life yet." Suppression and denial are the most common means of coping with abortion. Between 60 and 70 percent of women who eventually confronted negative feelings about their abortions admit that there was a period of time during which they would have denied to others and themselves any regrets or negative feelings. On average, this period of denial was about five years, with a low of one month and a high of twenty years. For others, even the process of discussing their experience threatens their precarious equilibrium. For example, one woman interviewed in a clinic as she awaited her third abortion at first insisted she had adjusted well to her first two abortions, but then she went on to describe experiencing symptoms which are now identified as part of post-abortion syndrome. She found herself confessing that she had developed a compulsive fascination with other people's children, outbursts of rage, and periods of depression and substance abuse. As she heard herself describing these problems, which she herself attributed to her previous abortions, she began to doubt what she should believe, finally concluding: "Truth is hard to take, and I just don't know if I'm ready for it." Read the rest of this excellent essay on the topic here: http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/women-who-abort-their-reflections-on-the-unborn
That's the point you don't and in case you didn't know (though I'm sure you do) to be racist you have to have a predisposed (false) idea that members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races, so do tell me where I do any of the above specific to race, I support abortion for ALL women regardless of their race, so know tell me how that is racist?
Fugazi, Anders Hoveland is just trying to justify his racism by focusing on the moral flaws of those pro-choicers.
Define a child, kinda hard to be one when they have not developed a brain yet, the same place most believe that if there is a soul that would be it's home.
